# Legal Question: How can a Cop defend themselves against a manslaughter charge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692 "2013-06-23T07:48:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/21 "2013-06-23T20:31:15Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > I just don’t understand this statement. Isn’t “self-defense” a possible subset of “acted reasonably”? Not in a case where you put yourself in danger in the first place. You can’t place yourself in front of moving car and then shoot the driver in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/22 "2013-06-23T20:37:26Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > I just don’t understand this statement. Isn’t “self-defense” a possible subset of “acted reasonably”? Maybe but these are all terms of art that really acquire their meaning through reference to specific facts - if that made any sense. What I’m trying to say is that you can have general principles but they don’t take on a patina of ‘realness’ until they’re applied. Beyond that though, the comment from the judge is puzzling. It sounds like he’s saying that there is some affirmative defense burden attendant to a Vol.MS charge. I seriously doubt that is correct though so I don’t know if that was just taken out of context or it was just a misstatement. Anyway, here’s a [good article](http://criminal.laws.com/murder/manslaughter/voluntary-manslaughter) that sums up the distinction between MS and VMS. [This also looks good but is over 40 pages.](http://www.sdap.org/downloads/research/criminal/homicide3.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Baxter\_s\_Dad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Baxter\_s\_Dad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baxter_s_Dad)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/23 "2013-06-23T21:17:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Not in a case where you put yourself in danger in the first place. You can’t place yourself in front of moving car and then shoot the driver in self-defense. This is absolutely ridiculous. A police officer on duty is not supposed to place himself in a place of danger? Really? So they shouldn’t ever respond to domestic assaults, bar fights or even traffic stops? It’s the officers fault when someone is intentionally trying to kill them? Wow, I guess a woman should never walk across a parking garage or stairway because if she gets raped it was HER fault because she placed herself in danger. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/24 "2013-06-23T21:20:49Z")
> [@Baxter\_s\_Dad](#): > > This is absolutely ridiculous. A police officer on duty is not supposed to place himself in a place of danger? Really? So they shouldn’t ever respond to domestic assaults, bar fights or even traffic stops? It’s the officers fault when someone is intentionally trying to kill them? Wow, I guess a woman should never walk across a parking garage or stairway because if she gets raped it was HER fault because she placed herself in danger. Are you making an effort to ignore the relevant issue here? Because if not, the distinctions should be pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/25 "2013-06-23T21:32:42Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > The deceased must be a relative of a judge ,why else would they prosecute. > > The defense lawyer can say whatever he likes to the jury, > apart from pointing out the conflict of interest/corruption inherent in the system (eg he can’t tell the jury that the deceased was a relative of the a judge… ) Explain your first sentence, please. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/26 "2013-06-23T21:56:11Z")
> [@Baxter\_s\_Dad](#): > > This is absolutely ridiculous. A police officer on duty is not supposed to place himself in a place of danger? Really? So they shouldn’t ever respond to domestic assaults, He’s not supposed to stand in front of a car full of bad guys. Of course, we don’t know how he came to be in front of the car. Hijack: a deputy here answered a domestic dispute several years ago, and the couple attacked him. He was ridiculed for taking his weapon apart when they tried to take it from him rather than shoot them. Guy had more balls than I. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/27 "2013-06-23T22:13:38Z")
> [@Baxter\_s\_Dad](#): > > This is absolutely ridiculous. A police officer on duty is not supposed to place himself in a place of danger? Really? So they shouldn’t ever respond to domestic assaults, bar fights or even traffic stops? It’s the officers fault when someone is intentionally trying to kill them? Wow, I guess a woman should never walk across a parking garage or stairway because if she gets raped it was HER fault because she placed herself in danger. As carnivorousplant said, and the equivalent situation is a women who voluntarily walks into the arms of someone she knows will rape her instead of stepping to the side to a place she where she knows she will be safe, which is something women don’t do because it’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Baxter\_s\_Dad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Baxter\_s\_Dad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baxter_s_Dad)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/28 "2013-06-23T22:28:24Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > As carnivorousplant said, and the equivalent situation is a women who voluntarily walks into the arms of someone she knows will rape her instead of stepping to the side to a place she where she knows she will be safe, which is something women don’t do because it’s stupid. You blame the victim. I blame the thug. A woman should be able to walk to her car after work without being attacked. An officer should be able to respond to a car burglary without being murdered. Blame the bad person who is inflicting the harm, not the victim. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/29 "2013-06-23T22:37:56Z")
> [@Baxter\_s\_Dad](#): > > You blame the victim. I blame the thug. > A woman should be able to walk to her car after work without being attacked. An officer should be able to respond to a car burglary without being murdered. Blame the bad person who is inflicting the harm, not the victim. That has nothing to do with it. Women don’t volunteer to be raped. Technically it’s not possible. An officer can respond to a car burglary without being murdered. Responding to a car burglary doesn’t give them a license to murder a burglar. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/30 "2013-06-23T22:42:46Z")
> [@Baxter\_s\_Dad](#): > > You blame the victim. I blame the thug. > A woman should be able to walk to her car after work without being attacked. An officer should be able to respond to a car burglary without being murdered. Blame the bad person who is inflicting the harm, not the victim. Officers agree to take on increased risk when they take the job. If they don’t like dealing with criminals and scary situations, they can quit. The act of responding to a burglary is obviously putting oneself in harm’s way. He was aware of the risks in general, and in this specific case and chose to take them on. I did not agree to take on increased risk when I was born with a vagina, and even though I am bone tired of sexist assholes and their bullshit, I cannot just quit being a woman. Your comparison is wrong and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/31 "2013-06-23T23:04:24Z")
Mistrial declared after two days of deliberations. I suspect there will be another trial. This shooting has been pretty polarizing here. No word yet on how the jury voted. > **[UPDATE: Mistrial declared, attorney cited for contempt of court](https://katv.com/archive/josh-hastings-verdict)** > > The manslaughter trial against former Little Rock Police Officer Josh Hastings ended in a mistrial Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/32 "2013-06-23T23:10:48Z")
Thanks, Ace. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/33 "2013-06-24T01:06:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Not in a case where you put yourself in danger in the first place. You can’t place yourself in front of moving car and then shoot the driver in self-defense. Why is this relevant here? I don’t see anything in the links saying that he placed himself in front of a moving car. What he is claiming is > [@](#): > > Hastings has said all along he acted in self-defense when he arrived at a scene to find Moore and two others breaking into the cars. Hastings says the two got into a vehicle and drove right at him. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/34 "2013-06-24T03:49:46Z")
This judge is a hard ass. 25 grand fine. The defense attorney will probably appeal that fine. I didn’t realize that the judge would automatically reschedule a new trial after this hung jury. I thought that was a decision the prosecutor made. \ It all starts over the middle of Sept. > **[UPDATE: Mistrial declared, attorney cited for contempt of court](https://katv.com/archive/josh-hastings-verdict)** > > The manslaughter trial against former Little Rock Police Officer Josh Hastings ended in a mistrial Sunday. > [@](#): > > Griffen had unfinished business for the defense attorney, James. > > Judge Griffen handed down 10 fines totaling $25,000 for contempt of court, stating James illicitly referred to past juvenile offenses of two boys who took the stand during this week’s trial. > > “Well, I’m not going to speak on the contempt issue, I’m just going to look at that and talk to my lawyer, and decide what we’re going to do about that,” James said afterwards. > > Judge Griffen has set jury selection to begin in mid-September, with the trial running into the beginning of October. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/35 "2013-06-24T04:13:34Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > Why is this relevant here? I don’t see anything in the links saying that he placed himself in front of a moving car. > > What he is claiming is I was responding with a hypothetical about why the judge wouldn’t allow the defendant to argue self-defense. The facts of the case may have excluded that possibility if the cop had placed himself in that position in defiance of regulations and common sense. I’m not saying that’s what actually happened here. My following posts were responding to some ridiculous claims about rape, and not really meant to apply to the police case at all. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/36 "2013-06-24T11:13:41Z")
I don’t believe that you can claim self defense in Arkansas unless you are in your own home or you have retreated as far as you can from danger. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/37 "2013-06-24T11:53:57Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I was responding with a hypothetical […] When you do this, you should really make this clear in your post. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/38 "2013-06-24T14:29:58Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > The deceased must be a relative of a judge [Might be.](https://courts.arkansas.gov/directories/circuit-judges/hon-wendell-griffen) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/39 "2013-06-24T14:32:01Z")
And he likes Unforgiven. It’s on his [Facebook.](https://www.facebook.com/judge.griffen) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692/40 "2013-06-24T14:47:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Judge Griffin said his reason is that Hastings is charged with manslaughter which means the state believes he acted recklessly and negligently and caused the death of Bobby Moore. Judge Griffin said it is the defense’s job to prove he was not reckless and that he acted reasonably but that isn’t the same as self-defense. WTF? 😕😕 IMNSHO, that ruling is about as wrong as one can be. If the shooting was done in self-defense, then by definition it was not reckless and it was reasonable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-how-can-a-cop-defend-themselves-against-a-manslaughter-charge/661692.md?page=3)