# Legal question: is it a crime to walk out with a communion wafer received during a mass. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 21, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513 "2011-03-21T20:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/1 "2011-03-21T20:50:07Z")
Could any of the Law Talking guys or gals out there settle a dispute which has come up in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13597485#post13597485)? Basically it amounts to a disagreement over whether or not a person whoreceives a communion wafer during a catholic mass is committing a crime if he takes it out of the church without eating it. Specifically can it be charged as “theft?” I personally think the suggestion of criminality is absurd. It’s rude, maybe, but the wafer was freely given to them. It’s theirs. It’s not a crime. Those who disagree are trying to argue based on some kind of theory of “fraud,” that the wafer was received “under false pretenses,” etc. Can any of our resident lawyers give us a definitive answer on this? Thank you? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/2 "2011-03-21T20:55:43Z")
IANAL. Consider this hypothetical: I complain to a friend that I am poor and cannot afford a car. If I had a car, I’d get a job. My friend gives me a car. I sell said car for X-Box money. Have I committed a crime? The situation seems analagous (no written agreement, implied consent, etc) and I don’t see a crime there. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/3 "2011-03-21T21:01:27Z")
If there is a crime, I think it must be [embezzlement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embezzlement). The person taking the wafer clearly has lawful possession of the wafer. The only question in my mind is who owns the wafer: does the church/diocese/parish own the wafer after possession has passed from the priest or minister? Because, if ownership has also passed, then it’s not even embezzlement. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/4 "2011-03-21T21:06:35Z")
From the other thread, here are the three statutes cited. 1. Canada: > [@](#): > > 1. (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently and without colour of right takes, or fraudulently and without colour of right converts to his use or to the use of another person, anything, whether animate or inanimate, with intent > > (a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it; > > (b) to pledge it or deposit it as security; > > (c) to part with it under a condition with respect to its return that the person who parts with it may be unable to perform; or > > (d) to deal with it in such a manner that it cannot be restored in the condition in which it was at the time it was taken or converted. 1. Texas: > [@](#): > > § 31.03. THEFT. > > (a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property. > > (b) Appropriation of property is unlawful if: > > (1) it is without the owner’s effective consent; 1. New York: > [@](#): > > 155.05 Larceny; defined. > > 1. A person steals property and commits larceny when, with intent to > deprive another of property or to appropriate the same to himself or to > a third person, he wrongfully takes, obtains or withholds such property > from an owner thereof. > 2. Larceny includes a wrongful taking, obtaining or withholding of > another’s property, with the intent prescribed in subdivision one of > this section, committed in any of the following ways: > (a) By conduct heretofore defined or known as common law larceny by > trespassory taking, common law larceny by trick, embezzlement, or > obtaining property by false pretenses; > … > > d) By false promise. > A person obtains property by false promise when, pursuant to a scheme > to defraud, he obtains property of another by means of a representation, > express or implied, that he or a third person will in the future engage > in particular conduct, and when he does not intend to engage in such > conduct or, as the case may be, does not believe that the third person > intends to engage in such conduct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/5 "2011-03-21T21:10:48Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > IANAL. Consider this hypothetical: I complain to a friend that I am poor and cannot afford a car. If I had a car, I’d get a job. My friend gives me a car. I sell said car for X-Box money. > > Have I committed a crime? The situation seems analagous (no written agreement, implied consent, etc) and I don’t see a crime there. Nope. No crime. You might lose a friend, though. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/6 "2011-03-21T21:12:22Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > IANAL. Consider this hypothetical: I complain to a friend that I am poor and cannot afford a car. If I had a car, I’d get a job. My friend gives me a car. I sell said car for X-Box money. > > Have I committed a crime? The situation seems analagous (no written agreement, implied consent, etc) and I don’t see a crime there. Crime in New York. > [@](#): > > A person obtains property by false promise when, pursuant to a scheme > to defraud, he obtains property of another by means of a representation, > express or implied, that he or a third person will in the future engage > in particular conduct, and when he does not intend to engage in such > conduct or, as the case may be, does not believe that the third person > intends to engage in such conduct. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/7 "2011-03-21T21:13:54Z")
If a store gives me a sample cracker to try to see if I like it, and I put the cracker in my pocket instead and leave the premises, have I stolen that cracker? If the church really believes that what they are giving is the body and blood of Christ, how can they claim to own it at all? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/8 "2011-03-21T21:18:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If a store gives me a sample cracker to try to see if I like it, and I put the cracker in my pocket instead and leave the premises, have I stolen that cracker? Does the store require, as a condition of receiving the cracker, that you try it on the spot? Will store employees forbid you to leave the store with their cracker, so that the only way you can do so is to sneak it? > [@](#): > > If the church really believes that what they are giving is the body and blood of Christ, how can they claim to own it at all? What the Church believes is the mystical essence of the host is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/9 "2011-03-21T21:20:24Z")
Cite for any legal requirement to eat a communion wafer on the spot? The person receiving it has made no such promise. Can we please get some lawyers in on this? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/10 "2011-03-21T21:22:42Z")
Where exists the contract, either written or verbal, that can be presented in a court of law that states that the communion wafer must be eaten on site once handed over? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/11 "2011-03-21T21:24:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite for any legal requirement to eat a communion wafer on the spot? The person receiving it has made no such promise. > > Can we please get some lawyers in on this? I am a lawyer. Albeit not a criminal lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/12 "2011-03-21T21:27:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where exists the contract, either written or verbal, that can be presented in a court of law that states that the communion wafer must be eaten on site once handed over? There is no need for a “contract”. By presenting yourself for the mass, to are making an implied representation that you are (a) a baptised Catholic and (b) intend to take communion. See for example the NY statute: > [@](#): > > A person obtains property by false promise when, pursuant to a scheme > to defraud, he obtains property of another by means of a representation, > express or implied, that he or a third person will in the future engage > in particular conduct, and when he does not intend to engage in such > conduct or, as the case may be, does not believe that the third person > intends to engage in such conduct. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/13 "2011-03-21T21:27:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite for any legal requirement to eat a communion wafer on the spot? The person receiving it has made no such promise. > > Can we please get some lawyers in on this? Arguing from the point of view that it is a crime, the person receiving the wafer should know that, in order to receive the eucharist, they should be a member of the Catholic Church, and that act of going the the altar to receive the eucharist would be taken by the priest or minister to be a nonverbal representation that they are such a member. And, if the person were such a member, they ought to be familiar with the Catholic Church’s rules on how the eucharist is to be dealt with. So there is some fraudulent misrepresentation going on for them to receive the wafer. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/14 "2011-03-21T21:29:04Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Arguing from the point of view that it is a crime, the person receiving the wafer should know that, in order to receive the eucharist, they should be a member of the Catholic Church, and that act of going the the altar to receive the eucharist would be taken by the priest or minister to be a nonverbal representation that they are such a member. And, if the person were such a member, they ought to be familiar with the Catholic Church’s rules on how the eucharist is to be dealt with. So there is some fraudulent misrepresentation going on for them to receive the wafer. Simulpost! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/15 "2011-03-21T21:33:56Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Arguing from the point of view that it is a crime, the person receiving the wafer should know that, in order to receive the eucharist, they should be a member of the Catholic Church, and that act of going the the altar to receive the eucharist would be taken by the priest or minister to be a nonverbal representation that they are such a member. And, if the person were such a member, they ought to be familiar with the Catholic Church’s rules on how the eucharist is to be dealt with. So there is some fraudulent misrepresentation going on for them to receive the wafer. So it would be against the law to take Communion under false pretenses? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/16 "2011-03-21T21:37:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is no need for a “contract”. By presenting yourself for the mass, to are making an implied representation that you are (a) a baptised Catholic and (b) intend to take communion Cite? By what statute? This is a Catholic expectation, not a law, and not something that non-catholics would necessarily be expected to know or agree to without being told. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/17 "2011-03-21T21:39:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite? By what statute? This is a Catholic expectation, not a law, and not something that non-catholics would necessarily be expected to know or agree to without being told. I cited the statutes already. You hand-waived them off. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/18 "2011-03-21T21:39:26Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Arguing from the point of view that it is a crime, the person receiving the wafer should know that, in order to receive the eucharist, they should be a member of the Catholic Church, and that act of going the the altar to receive the eucharist would be taken by the priest or minister to be a nonverbal representation that they are such a member. And, if the person were such a member, they ought to be familiar with the Catholic Church’s rules on how the eucharist is to be dealt with. So there is some fraudulent misrepresentation going on for them to receive the wafer. Cite that a non-catholic would know or agree to any of this, or that he has any legal contract to eat the wafer? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/19 "2011-03-21T21:40:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So it would be against the law to take Communion under false pretenses? The issue is the taking of property under false pretences. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513/20 "2011-03-21T21:41:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I cited the statutes already. You hand-waived them off. They’re not applicable. You’re trying to claim fraud, but you haven’t shown that palming a communion wafer is fraud, or that such a person has any legal agreement or contract with the curch or that such a pesron even knows that these “rules” exist under Catholic doctrine. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-is-it-a-crime-to-walk-out-with-a-communion-wafer-received-during-a-mass/575513.md?page=2)