# Legal question re: music in offices **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 5, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790 "2010-01-05T20:26:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/41 "2010-01-07T01:03:48Z")
[Interesting story from the UK](http://firemark.com/2007/10/08/listening-to-the-radio-at-work-you-may-be-a-copyright-infringer/) > [@](#): > > A recent case in the UK Courts is raising some interesting questions about liability for copyright infringement by companies whose employees play music in the workplace. > > In the case at hand, mechanics for a Scottish car repair service played their personal radios in the work-bays of the company’s garage. Obviously, an auto-repair shop is a noisy place, so the radios’ volume settings were on the loud side. Consequently, customers, other mechanics and passersby could also hear the music being played. > > The Performing Rights Society responsible for collecting royalties for songwriters and performers in the UK, sued the shop for damages of two hundred thousand pounds (around $400,00) for copyright infringement on grounds that this is a “public performance” within the meaning of copyright law. But is it? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/42 "2010-01-07T01:24:29Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Interesting story from the UK](http://firemark.com/2007/10/08/listening-to-the-radio-at-work-you-may-be-a-copyright-infringer/) I’m familiar with this story. To clarify, I never said it was legal by the letter of the law. I just said this is a gray area where BMI ASCAP have not bothered to clamp down on. I’m not aware of any case in the USA where this was enforced or pursued. Now, maybe part of the issue is that maybe the UK mechanies played their radios too loud and one of their disgruntled customers ratted them out to the Performing Rights Society. Now, if BMI ASCAP really want to tackle this, I would prefer they go after the kids with earthquake bass car stereos playing rap music that I have to hear at every stop light. Surely, their loud bass beats leaking into my car constitute a “public performance!” If I overhear someones obnoxiously loud iPod over their earphones, that’s also a “public performance.” If a friend at a party calls me and I hear music in the background, that’s also a “public performance.” If I angle my cordless phone a certain way, I can hear my neighbor’s radio as interference. The sound is full of static and noise but it’s a “public performance” nevertheless. The absurdity can certainly go in a thousand different directions. Basically, the entire world is in violation. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/43 "2010-01-07T01:53:49Z")
A thing to remember is that we’re in Middle Tennessee. Both BMI and ASCAP have offices in Nashville and **Brynda’s** clients may be members or employees. StG ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/44 "2010-01-07T01:59:26Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Basically, the entire world is in violation. Someone is going to need more hours. d&r ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/45 "2010-01-07T03:57:53Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > However, there is an grey area informal pass based on _how_ the music is played. For example, if there was a receptionist in the waiting room area and she was simply playing her radio at her desk, it’s incidental that the guests can also hear it. This is not the legal exemption you’re looking for but nobody goes after businesses for this type of thing. Car mechanics play their radios in the auto dealer service bays. People play radios at the beach. These are all “public” places. > > However, it’s quite a different thing to pipe that same music on speakers mounted in the ceiling. In this case, the music contributes to the “atmosphere” of the business. That’s an interesting distinction I wasn’t aware of. It explains the [SOCAN](http://www.socan.ca/jsp/en/pub/index.jsp) label on the door of the gym I go to: they pipe their music to both floors, including the enclosed dance studios. I suppose that if you didn’t want to deal with BMI and ASCAP, you could play music with a [Creative Commons license](http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/) that allpws the performance, or go to one of thre labels like [Magnatune](http://magnatune.com/info/licensing) that offer similar easy licensing. In this case, you’re taking care of the licensing yourself, instead of going throuigh the big organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/46 "2010-01-07T04:26:26Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > If your child sings a cover a song for a school talent show? Hmmm… I don’t know that one and would have to look it up. My guess is yes, you owe royalties for that as well. Does it make a difference that the school talent show is (presumably) not commercial in nature? It’s been a long time since I took copyright law. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/47 "2010-01-07T13:48:32Z")
Paying these fees just encourages these kind of people to go after others. In this case it is so simple, just get different classical recordings and make your own CD from rips, now you have an unmarked CD no one can say who the dam performing group was, and thus you would be 100 percent safe and not waste your money. Note this wouldn’t work with singers that can be identified but it will work great with classical instrumentals. They certainly deserve no fee for music in the public domain anyway, I’d never pay on that basis even a cent. An unmarked self made CD you could always say was your school or college band, or some overseas group. Do that and use instrumental music and you will be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/48 "2010-01-07T15:05:03Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > An unmarked self made CD you could always say was your school or college band, or some overseas group. Do that and use instrumental music and you will be fine. While in practice the OP’d probably be fine, in principal this is stupid idea. Music – even classical music that all sounds the same to people that don’t appreciate it – can be identified. If the OP were subpoenaed and turned in even home made CD’s, the performing artist could be identified. (And a classical music lover would probably be able to identify the performance upon hearing it only.) ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/49 "2010-01-07T15:37:56Z")
This is a joke right? I wouldn’t pay anyone a dime to play my personally owned CDs over some speakers in my waiting room as background music. You’d be foolish to. Sure, maybe it not legal per se but who’s going to bust you? Odds are you’ll never get some BMI/ASPAC person drop by as a client and even if they do I doubt they spend their time going around harassing small business owners for playing background music. If it weighs that heavy on your conscience go ahead and pay the fee. Or send me $25 a year and I’ll promise to pay any fines you receive. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/50 "2010-01-07T15:52:57Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Paying these fees just encourages these kind of people to go after others. What kind of people? Artists who want to get paid for their work? ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/51 "2010-01-07T17:45:09Z")
Contra, No, people selling licenses like the OP talked to, BMI, etc. They wouldn’t even know what artists he might play, he just ends up paying 200 a year to not help anyone but the CEO and lawyers at the music place make bonuses and salary, I mean how could any artists get paid from that 200, it will be used just as I said, to go after yet more people using music to pay these license people even more big salary bucks. Here since the classical content is free, it is especially silly to pay anyone, do you think Mozart will benefit, or that all the people playing it will stop if this organization did not exist? Remember the artists here are all long dead, it is a scam to pay money to these people for that, and the artists sure will not benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Mikemike2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikemike2/32/305_2.png) [@Mikemike2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikemike2)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/52 "2010-01-07T17:53:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > What kind of people? Artists who want to get paid for their work? Rolls eyes, but does not want to hijack thread. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/53 "2010-01-07T17:57:23Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Contra, No, people selling licenses like the OP talked to, BMI, etc. They wouldn’t even know what artists he might play, he just ends up paying 200 a year to not help anyone but the CEO and lawyers at the music place make bonuses and salary, I mean how could any artists get paid from that 200, it will be used just as I said, to go after yet more people using music to pay these license people even more big salary bucks. [BMI](http://www.bmi.com/about/entry/538061). [ASCAP](http://www.ascap.com/about/). Both of these organizations exist in order to distribute royalties to artists,and ASCAP’s membership is nothing but artists, composers, etc. > [@](#): > > Here since the classical content is free, it is especially silly to pay anyone, do you think Mozart will benefit, or that all the people playing it will stop if this organization did not exist? Remember the artists here are all long dead, it is a scam to pay money to these people for that, and the artists sure will not benefit. As has been noted, while the compositions may be in the public domain, the performances are not. The artists who perform the work need to be paid. Wouldn’t you stop doing your job if you were no longer paid for it? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/54 "2010-01-07T17:58:26Z")
> [@Mikemike2](#): > > Rolls eyes, but does not want to hijack thread. Notes pussyish, passive aggressive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/55 "2010-01-07T18:38:23Z")
Contra, they were selling him a license to play anything classical, do you really think they will send a buck then to each artist on the planet who has ever recorded classical music, or will it go for CEO’s and lawyers pay at BMI? Think real hard and the answer is easy to see. In the case of an orchestra, they would have already been paid long ago when they performed, by ticket revenue and whatever. You asked if I would want my pay, well I have yet to be paid again for any of my work after the pay I got right then, so there is no comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/56 "2010-01-07T18:50:38Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Contra, they were selling him a license to play anything classical, do you really think they will send a buck then to each artist on the planet who has ever recorded classical music, or will it go for CEO’s and lawyers pay at BMI? Think real hard and the answer is easy to see. Who said the license was just for classical music? Who said that every artist who ever recorded such music would be paid? Did you read my links? Do you understand how royalties work? How do you expect artists to get paid what they are owed? Do you really believe that 370,000 artists would join ASCAP if all the money went to CEOs and lawyers? [From Wiki.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_of_Composers,_Authors_and_Publishers) \*In 2008, ASCAP collected over US$933 million in licensing fees and distributed US$817 million in royalties to its members, with an 11.3% operating expense ratio. \* I really don’t think you know what you are talking about. ETA: > [@](#): > > In the case of an orchestra, they would have already been paid long ago when they performed, by ticket revenue and whatever. You asked if I would want my pay, well I have yet to be paid again for any of my work after the pay I got right then, so there is no comparison. Got it. You don’t understand how royalties work. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/57 "2010-01-07T18:51:58Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Here since the classical content is free, it is especially silly to pay anyone, do you think Mozart will benefit, or that all the people playing it will stop if this organization did not exist? Remember the artists here are all long dead, it is a scam to pay money to these people for that, and the artists sure will not benefit. Well mathematics is free. Why should teachers get paid for teaching it? The inventors of calculus Isaac Newton and Liebniz are also dead – therefore calculus teachers should also work pro bono. The 500,000 words of the English language are also free. English teachers should also be 100% volunteers. The PDF text of all federal and state statutes, regulations, and laws are also free for downloads. Lawyers should also be free. Last time I checked, nobody has a patent on the arm-leg-back motion for lifting heavy objects. Therefore, apartment movers should be free too. > [@](#): > > do you really think they will send a buck then to each artist on the planet who has ever recorded classical music, Yes, I do. (They don’t send $1.00 but the send percentages to the artists.) If you were an actual member of ASCAP or BMI you’d know this too. If ASCAP _didn’t_ pay money to artists, nobody would ever _voluntarily join_ ASCAP. Think real hard as to why artists join ASCAP. > [@](#): > > In the case of an orchestra, they would have already been paid long ago when they performed, by ticket revenue and whatever. Incorrect, many classical recordings are done by orchestras without audiences specifically for CD distribution and licensing. There are no ticket sales in these cases. They are factoring and counting on license revenues. I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Rack-a-Bones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rack-a-Bones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rack-a-Bones)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/58 "2010-01-07T20:06:15Z")
Um, forgive me if this is a stupid question but if I subscribe to XM and pay for the service, why can’t I play it in my office? I’m paying for the service and people are listening to it. I’m not making any money off of this. It is just something nice for my customers. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/59 "2010-01-07T20:10:09Z")
> [@Rack-a-Bones](#): > > Um, forgive me if this is a stupid question but if I subscribe to XM and pay for the service, why can’t I play it in my office? I’m paying for the service and people are listening to it. I’m not making any money off of this. It is just something nice for my customers. Several posts on the precious page address this. Start with #5. ---
**Author:** ![Rack-a-Bones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rack-a-Bones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rack-a-Bones)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790/60 "2010-01-07T20:30:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Several posts on the precious page address this. Start with #5. I guess I should have been more clear. I get that the recording/radio/entertainment industry thinks that since I run a business I should be considered different from private use. What I don’t get is why a dentist or doctor’s office --that will not realize any income from playing music in their waiting room-- needs to be a special case. That is a debate for another thread. As to the OP: the XM Business agreement states that your subscription covers all royalties etc. So other than paying your monthly subscription fee you don’t need to worry about _BMI_ or _ASCAP_. From here: [SiriusXM: Music, Sports, Talk & Podcasts, Live & On Demand](http://www.xmradio.com/help/faqs/commercial.xmc#diff) > [@](#): > > With an XM Commercial Service package for your business, all commercial licensing and royalty obligations to the artists are covered, unless you operate an establishment that charges an admissions or membership fee (e.g. a theme park, skating rink, dance club, health club, etc.) or use music sources other than XM (e.g. CDs, DJs, live music or terrestrial radio, etc.), in which case you are responsible for payment of any copyright royalties. ETA: So if you subscribe to a business service you would be fine. If you play your own CDs it appears you would need to make arrangements to cover royalties with one of the mentioned entities. Personally, I’d put it on the local public classical radio station and just let it play. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-re-music-in-offices/523790.md?page=4)