# Legal question regarding property line **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 1, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406 "2011-05-01T19:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/61 "2011-05-03T18:28:05Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The lot was fenced in such a way that it appeared much larger than it was - this was at least passive deceit - the previous owners either got taken the same way and decided to pass it forward, or have been using the county property free for years. Agreed. > [@md2000](#): > > The agent, it seems to me, decided to not mention details he must have known - he saw the neighbours’ fence lines and must have guessed (or else he is too stupid, but I thought the truly stupid agents went out of business during the meltdown.). Instead he let you assume, so you would pay bigger bucks under false assumptions and he got a nice commission. > > I’m sure he saw the problem. Notice how he covered his ass by making you get a survey and then you conveniently did not really see it until it was too late? No, the property lines are not even. One of my neighbors has easily twice the amount of land I have…and it goes back much further than mine. There is no straight line there or I probably would have noticed something was wrong. Actually, a few houses on one side of my property have property lines that are huge but get progressively smaller as you approach my property. No reason to suspect anything wrong at first glance. Also, as **astro** mentioned, my realtor \*suggested \* I have the survey done in the first place. When he suggested the survey he only mentioned that it would be useful for knowing where to put a fence, a deck, etc. Incompetence? Maybe. Deceit? I don’t think so. Of course, I am basing my opinion on a lot of other things that the realtor has done for me…including steering me away from some properties that I loved but that he saw big problems. > [@md2000](#): > > “Wooded lot” or “wooded back yard” means to me an area with some decent density of trees on it. I have never heard it refer to a fence. Still, a misleading add is probably totally useless in court when you had the opportunity to see the location, see the area of the lot writen on a deed or contract, did a survey, etc. The part of the ad that struck me was the use of the word “private”. Yes, I realize that is not grounds to sue. “Private wooded lot” doesn’t have to mean fenced but I think it should mean you **own** the fucking lot! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/62 "2011-05-03T19:38:43Z")
> [@astro](#): > > People keep (bizarrely) noting in this thread that the agent suggesting a survey was somehow “suspicious” behavior. These days almost all competent agents will suggest (some virtually insist) that a survey be done. In additional many banks require it as a matter of course. > > It would be suspicious to me if the agent did _not_ ask for survey to be done. Asking for the survey is going to show exactly where the lot line is and would possibly (according to the OP) have blown the deal if the buyer has spent more than few seconds looking at it. Trying to whip this into some conspiracy to deceive is absurd. Practices vary in different markets. If an area rarely turns up surveying problems, sometimes a buyer may skip the survey. But I never heard of a title company insuring property lot lines if they don’t know where they are. They might issue a policy, but it would have a big, honkin’ exception clause for the boundaries. I’ve been told lately by both lenders and surveyors that title companies and lenders are tightening up on this, and some old (like only 10 years ago) surveys aren’t up to snuff by today’s standards and have to be redone more carefully. For all rural properties I write offers on, I always include a survey contingency unless the buyer specifically tells me to leave it out. Not so much for city props. I’d say about 30% of the rural offers I write turn up some problem with the lot lines. Not all are major, but I had one recently that got the whole deal cancelled when 2 feet of driveway was found to be over the line. The buyer didn’t want to mess with it and walked away. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/63 "2011-05-03T20:08:39Z")
We recently purchased a property and the mortgage company required a survey. I got it in plenty of time, but had trouble mentally or visually placing all the lines on the paper onto my actual dirt. Luckily for me, there was a need for the surveyor to return to the property to “certify” the elevations, and so I had the opportunity to ask that he “flag the corner posts” for me. He did so with rags, orange spray paint, and sticks from nearby trees. This allowed me to see that the fences and my property boundaries did not have an actual one to one correspondence (to put it mildly- in one place the fence is 28 feet off). Luckily, there is no dispute with the neighbors – everybody agrees that the survey controls, and the fences were merely an approximation of property boundaries. Some years ago I purchased a “landlocked” property – a 10 acre rectangle completely surrounded by other properties, with access only by a 10 foot wide “easement for access” across one of those properties. At some historic time there was a dispute over the access, and the owner of what would become my property went to court and was granted a judgment formally recognizing the easement in perpetuity. They had been using the resulting dirt road for 20 years. But when I had it surveyed, we discovered a problem - the dirt road wasn’t completely on the easement. The legal description of the easement prepared for the court order was in error. It was supposed to be a long skinny rectangle (the easement) coming into a much larger rectangle (the property) at one corner, like Oklahoma’s panhandle. Instead the easement rectangle was offset by 10 feet and met the property rectangle corner to corner. This was an issue because (as it was explained to me) I wouldn’t be able to actually access the property unless I could squeeze myself through a mathematical point, that point (the corners) being the sole place in which the easement and the property were congruent. Fortunately I was able to get the different neighbor at the end of the easement to sell me a small piece of his property, extending my easement rectangle alongside my property rectangle and giving me enough room to walk or drive a car without trespassing on someone else’s dirt. So it does not take skullduggery or evil intent to produce a boundary problem, and even surveyors and lawyers and courts of law can screw them up. You just have to take extreme diligence for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/64 "2011-05-03T20:59:45Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I have title insurance but I’m not sure what that has to do with this situation. Could you please explain? Perhaps I’ve been misinformed, but doesn’t the tile insurance cover a clear title to what’s under contract. Maybe it’s not applicable in this case, but it wouldn’t hurt to give them a call. You’ve nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/65 "2011-05-03T21:19:40Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > No, the property lines are not even. One of my neighbors has easily twice the amount of land I have…and it goes back much further than mine. There is no straight line there or I probably would have noticed something was wrong. Actually, a few houses on one side of my property have property lines that are huge but get progressively smaller as you approach my property. No reason to suspect anything wrong at first glance. As you probably already realize, all those back “property lines” are probably not (ETA: or at least, not necessarily) the actual lot lines either. If you do nothing, what happens? You keep using the property as the previous owner did. Until (if ever) someone tries to develop the lot, and opens a hornet’s nest if he tries to cut back to the actual lot lines. Then, you and your neighbors would have a combined voice, and may be able to get some concessions like leaving enough of the wooded area so you’re shielded somewhat from whatever goes there. Open your mouth to the county, and I don’t see how any good will come to you. The _best possible_ outcome is you obtain what you already effectively have, and even that’s a long shot. My 2 cents. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/66 "2011-05-03T21:24:07Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Perhaps I’ve been misinformed, but doesn’t the tile insurance cover a clear title to what’s under contract. Maybe it’s not applicable in this case, but it wouldn’t hurt to give them a call. You’ve nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain. Read the entire thread. The title is not in dispute. The contract is not in dispute. The survey is not in dispute. He has full and clear title to the deeded property referenced in the contract and delineated by the survey. The issue is that a wayward fenceline made of chickenwire gave him the impression his yard extended into the woods when it did not. This has nothing to do with title. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/67 "2011-05-03T21:30:02Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > As you probably already realize, all those back “property lines” are probably not (ETA: or at least, not necessarily) the actual lot lines either. No, they are actually the lot lines. I mean, they could very well be off by a few feet but, from looking at the crude online tax maps it is apparent that they actually own more property than I have or thought I had. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/68 "2011-05-03T21:30:22Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Perhaps I’ve been misinformed, but doesn’t the tile insurance cover a clear title to what’s under contract. Maybe it’s not applicable in this case, but it wouldn’t hurt to give them a call. You’ve nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain. Title insurance covers only what is specified in the title policy. Frequently there are exceptions (specified in the policy). The title companies typically start out with draft boilerplate that excepts almost _everything_, then they remove each exception as the appropriate paperwork is done and legal opinion is rendered by the underwriters. Which is why I write Purchase Offers to say that the survey _must be sufficient to remove all survey exceptions from the title policy._ If it doesn’t, the Buyer may cancel the deal without obligation (or work out a compromise), but he should have that protection (that’s my opinion, not a legal requirement). ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406/69 "2011-05-03T21:52:58Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Title insurance covers only what is specified in the title policy. Frequently there are exceptions (specified in the policy). The title companies typically start out with draft boilerplate that excepts almost _everything_, then they remove each exception as the appropriate paperwork is done and legal opinion is rendered by the underwriters. > > Which is why I write Purchase Offers to say that the survey _must be sufficient to remove all survey exceptions from the title policy._ If it doesn’t, the Buyer may cancel the deal without obligation (or work out a compromise), but he should have that protection (that’s my opinion, not a legal requirement). That’s not quite right. In the first place, title insurance doesn’t have underwriters. It is not like other insurance in that respect. “Title guarantee” policy would be a more accurate description. A title company’s employees examine the title of record, and then issue a preliminary report showing all the defects of record. If the buyer is unwilling to accept those defects, the seller must clear the defects (called “exceptions”). It is similar to an abstract of the parcel being examined by an attorney, who then issues his opinion as to the state of the title. By necessity, matters not of record cannot be covered, such as unrecorded easements or private roads. An inspection of the property would reveal those matters. A title company can cover those matters which an inspection would disclose by sending someone out to inspect the property. An additional premium is charged for that. Title insurance also does not cover “questions of survey,” being another boilerplate exception. A title company can cover questions of survey if given the appropriate survey (for an extra charge). Questions of surveys are often asked by lenders who want mortgage policies. The proper survey must be furnished. If the land is under construction, and the lender or lenders want protection throughout the construction, the title company must be furnished waivers of mechanics’ liens as the construction progresses. Mechanics’ liens (contractors, subcontractors, materielmen, etc.) do not have to be recorded to be liens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-regarding-property-line/580406.md?page=3)