# legal questions on Dems spying on Giuliani **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 4, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355 "2019-12-04T14:47:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/1 "2019-12-04T14:47:48Z")
Giuliani is Trump’s personal attorney, and the Democrats revealed they obtained some of Giuliani’s phone records in the recent Impeachment Inquiry Report. Some questions: 1. Did they need a warrant? 2. Did they have a warrant? 3. Did it violate attorney client privilege? 4. Can Trump invoke a “fruit of the poisoned tree” legal manuever? 5. What exactly was in the obtained records? 6. Can Giuliani file a lawsuit, and against who? 7. What can he do to figure out who to sue? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/2 "2019-12-04T14:58:27Z")
Are you proposing that criminals like Rudy have legal recourse to stop investigations into them? Do you propose that non-Republicans have the same right to stop investigations – like, say, can Hunter Biden sue Rudy? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/3 "2019-12-04T15:03:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you proposing that criminals like Rudy have legal recourse to stop investigations into them? > > Do you propose that non-Republicans have the same right to stop investigations – like, say, can Hunter Biden sue Rudy? This is General Questions, not Elections. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/4 "2019-12-04T15:08:09Z")
Oops, I lost track. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/5 "2019-12-04T15:12:53Z")
AT&T didn’t specifically mention a subpoena, but they said that they were “[required by law](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/we-were-required-by-law-to-turn-over-call-records-to-congress-att-says)” to produce the records requested by Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/6 "2019-12-04T15:21:08Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Can Trump invoke a “fruit of the poisoned tree” legal manuever? In what proceeding? Congress is only bound by “legal maneuvers” to the extent that it relies on the courts to do work for it. You can’t go to court to dismiss an impeachment because you think they did it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/7 "2019-12-04T15:36:49Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Giuliani is Trump’s personal attorney, and the Democrats revealed they obtained some of Giuliani’s phone records in the recent Impeachment Inquiry Report. Some questions: > > 1. Did they need a warrant? > 2. Did they have a warrant? > 3. Did it violate attorney client privilege? > 4. Can Trump invoke a “fruit of the poisoned tree” legal manuever? > 5. What exactly was in the obtained records? > 6. Can Giuliani file a lawsuit, and against who? > 7. What can he do to figure out who to sue? No, no, no, no, numbers and times, anyone he wants (but he’ll lose), just make it up because any lawsuit would be baseless. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/8 "2019-12-04T15:48:48Z")
Answers below mixed in with your questions. > [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Giuliani is Trump’s personal attorney, and the Democrats revealed they obtained some of Giuliani’s phone records in the recent Impeachment Inquiry Report. Some questions: > > 1. Did they need a warrant? > > No. Congress has the authority to issue subpeonas. I’m sure that’s what they used. > > 1. Did they have a warrant? > > I doubt it. They aren’t criminal investigators and they can rely on their subpeona. > > 1. Did it violate attorney client privilege? > > Not to my knowledge. Privileged information only covers communications between a lawyer and his client for the purpose of receiving legal advice and which they have kept confidential. The phone records are a list of phone numbers Giuliani called, a list of phone numbers that called him, and meta data about the calls such as how long the calls lasted and where the phone was at the time (e.g., to which fell phone tower it was connected). That is all information the phone company has, so it wasn’t confidential between Giuliani and his client, and none of it is information that was conveyed between lawyer and client for the purposes of getting legal advice. > > 1. Can Trump invoke a “fruit of the poisoned tree” legal manuever? > > No. There is no violation of Giuliani’s rights and Trump lacks standing to assert rights for Giuliani. Group’s rights have not been violated. This doesn’t even involve a criminal proceeding in which the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine would be relevant. > > 1. What exactly was in the obtained records? > > Described above. > > 1. Can Giuliani file a lawsuit, and against who? > > He can sue anyone he wants for any reason but he has no apparent grounds for a suit. > > 1. What can he do to figure out who to sue? > > he should learn something about the law because he is an idiot who apparently knows nothing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/9 "2019-12-04T15:50:41Z")
“What can Giuliani do about Democrat’s SPYING on him? And please, no political jabs !” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/10 "2019-12-04T15:54:27Z")
Can anyone comment on whether the speech and debate clause would protect a congressional investigation from a lawsuit against a valid subpoena? I mean, on top of the subpoena being presumably valid. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/11 "2019-12-04T16:19:39Z")
Courts say yes if it involves a legitimate legislative purpose. From [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress): > [@](#): > > As announced in Wilkinson v. United States,[7] a Congressional committee must meet three requirements for its subpoenas to be “legally sufficient.” First, the committee’s investigation of the broad subject area must be authorized by its chamber; second, the investigation must pursue “a valid legislative purpose” but does not need to involve legislation and does not need to specify the ultimate intent of Congress; and third, the specific inquiries must be pertinent to the subject matter area that has been authorized for investigation. > > The Court held in Eastland v. United States Servicemen’s Fund[8] that Congressional subpoenas are within the scope of the Speech and Debate clause which provides “an absolute bar to judicial interference” once it is determined that Members are acting within the “legitimate legislative sphere” with such compulsory process. Under that ruling, courts generally do not hear motions to quash Congressional subpoenas; even when executive branch officials refuse to comply, courts tend to rule that such matters are “political questions” unsuitable for judicial remedy. In fact, many legal rights usually associated with a judicial subpoena do not apply to a Congressional subpoena. For example, attorney-client privilege and information that is normally protected under the Trade Secrets Act do not need to be recognized. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/12 "2019-12-04T16:21:36Z")
While there are factual questions involved, the OP is so free ranging (and also contains a political jab in the title) I think this is better for Elections. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/13 "2019-12-04T16:39:10Z")
None of those questions are about the Dems spying on Giuliani since that never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/14 "2019-12-04T16:56:30Z")
Trumpers have this desperate need to find that magic bullet that will make this all go away. Newflash: There is not going to be a technicality that causes all of this disappear. I know that accountability for one’s actions is anathema to Republicans in regards to other Republicans, but none of their theories will nullify the corruption and wrongdoing that has been cataloged. They tried this with the Carter Page FISA warrant, the Steele dossier, Mueller’s “conflicts of interest”, the whistleblower speaking to House Intel staffers and being directed to the proper channels to report, now I guess the latest is spying on Giuliani. It’s desperate flailing, that’s all it is. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/15 "2019-12-04T17:14:41Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Trumpers have this desperate need to find that magic bullet that will make this all go away. The magic bullet is when Mitch McConnell says it’s all fine “because fuck you, that’s why.” ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/16 "2019-12-04T17:18:13Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The magic bullet is when Mitch McConnell says it’s all fine “because fuck you, that’s why.” Well then the voters get the ultimate say. Both for POTUS and for the Senators that abandoned their constitutional duty. If that still isn’t enough, then I guess we live in an authoritarian dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/17 "2019-12-04T18:01:31Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The magic bullet is when Mitch McConnell says it’s all fine “because fuck you, that’s why.” We need to put the Republicans on record as saying “because fuck you, that’s why”. History needs to judge these monsters. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/18 "2019-12-04T18:51:42Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > 1. Did they need a warrant? No. > [@](#): > > 1. Did they have a warrant? No. > [@](#): > > 1. Did it violate attorney client privilege? No. > [@](#): > > 1. Can Trump invoke a “fruit of the poisoned tree” legal manuever? No. > [@](#): > > 1. What exactly was in the obtained records? Call logs (who called whom and when and for how long.) > [@](#): > > 1. Can Giuliani file a lawsuit, and against who? Anybody can sue anyone for any reason they want. If Guiliani does so he is unlikely to win. Congress’s subpoena and oversight power is very broad and no privileged information was obtained. > [@](#): > > 1. What can he do to figure out who to sue? Hire a lawyer, then get laughed out of court. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/19 "2019-12-04T18:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > We need to put the Republicans on record as saying “because fuck you, that’s why”… They don’t say “Fuck”, kinda doubt they even do it. Ewww! Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355/20 "2019-12-04T19:07:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They don’t say “Fuck”, kinda doubt they even do it. Ewww! Sorry. Unless they are in an airport men’s room. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-questions-on-dems-spying-on-giuliani/844355.md?page=2)