# Legal Tender and 'Irreversible Transactions'
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [January 11, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804 "2009-01-11T17:00:38Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/1 "2009-01-11T17:00:38Z")
Okay, I’m aware that the legal tender laws do not, in general, require that a business accept currency in payment of a purchase transaction, but do mandate that they accept it in payment of a debt.
My question, which sounds simple but is curiously hard to nail down an answer to, is: What if the transaction you’re attempting to complete by offering currency is one where returning the merchandise is not possible or unfeasible.
Two examples:
1. I fill up my gas tank and enter the station to pay. I then see a sign informing me that they do not accept $50 or $100 bills. I look in my billfold and find I have spent the $20s I had, leaving me a $5, a number of $1’s, and one large bill adequate to pay for my fill-up. It’s theoretically possible for the station to pump the fuel back out of my gas tank, at some expense and inconvenience to all concerned, but the reasonable solution is for them to take my $50 or $100 and make change. Could this be grounds for invoking legal tender laws?
2. This time I’m in a restaurant, have finished a meal, and am due to pay. Same sign and billfold contents as #1. Obviously there is no way they can reclaim my dinner as ‘merchandise’; they deserve payment and I’m willing to pay, but with currency they claim not to be willing to accept. Does this constitute a debt invoking the legal tender laws?
3. The preceding two scenarios presume I was unaware of my inability to pay in a medium they were willing to accept until time to render payment. Does it make any difference if I did it on purpose?
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### Author:  [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/2 "2009-01-12T22:24:36Z")
I’m pretty sure it’s treated as if you just didn’t have the cash on hand. I remember a case where someone tried to pay a parking ticket in pennies. The reasononing is that if you don’t have acceptable payment, then you arguably don’t have payment. I’m sure at the level at where this plays out, the judge (or trier of fact) has wide discretion on how reasonable your payment is.
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/3 "2009-01-12T23:29:24Z")
Where I work we do have signs on the pumps warning that “There are times when our cash reserves are very low and we may be unable to accept $50 or $100 bills”. Granted our cash reserves are always low since we can’t keep more that $70 in our registers anymore and have no way to open the safe. We have a hidden bag with about $150 in 1s and 5s. Surprisingly the OPs scenario rarely comes up and when it does we’ll open it up and give them their change in 1s, the odd 5, and rolls of quarters.
BTW we’re literely the only station in the city that still allows people to pump then pay (at least during daylight); hopefully that will change soon and we can finally switch to pre-pay all the time.
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### Author:  [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/4 "2009-01-12T23:44:24Z")
> [@mazinger\_z](#):
>
> I’m pretty sure it’s treated as if you just didn’t have the cash on hand. I remember a case where someone tried to pay a parking ticket in pennies. The reasononing is that if you don’t have acceptable payment, then you arguably don’t have payment. I’m sure at the level at where this plays out, the judge (or trier of fact) has wide discretion on how reasonable your payment is.
The reason you can’t pay in pennies is the nuisance factor. Trying to pay a large amount in pennies is clearly unreasonable. I don’t think that trying to pay for gas with a $50 isn’t the same kind of unreasonable.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/5 "2009-01-12T23:54:25Z")
Legal Tender laws are really there to prevent a USA business from demanding gold coins or Euros or something. Not to make a business keep enough change to satisfy every customer.
If they want to accept CC only, that’s OK, too.
Now, if you did fill up $50 in gas and offered a $50 but they refused, I think that if they tried to call the police on you for theft, the police would hurt themselves laughing.
I know some gas stations that will do that, but only if the purchase is with $5 of the bill tendered. A few months ago, we had $4+ gas and a SUV could easily get to $50.
But _no business has to keep change for you_. I suppose you could legally leave them the whole $50. IANAL. A compromise might be you waiting until they get enough change or leaving them the $50 with the deal you’d come back or they’d mail you the difference.
Of course, most of the gas stations that won’t take large bills also require you to pay in advance. Mootness.😃
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/6 "2009-01-12T23:58:15Z")
I re-read this and it kind of sounds like I am being critical of Poly’s interesting question. I am not, great question IMHO.🆒
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### Author:  [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/7 "2009-01-13T00:10:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Legal Tender laws are really there to prevent a USA business from demanding gold coins or Euros or something.
I don’t think this is true, unless you are referring to accepting the tender for the repayment of debt.
I don’t think there is any law preventing a business from accepting, or only accepting, foreign currency.
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/8 "2009-01-13T13:07:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> I know some gas stations that will do that, but only if the purchase is with $5 of the bill tendered. A few months ago, we had $4+ gas and a SUV could easily get to $50.
SUV? Try my _car_. 😉
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### Author:  [@accidentalyuppie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/accidentalyuppie)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/9 "2009-01-13T14:03:57Z")
Give them the $50.00 and stock up on motor oil,microwave burritos, and smokes.
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/10 "2009-01-13T17:19:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Legal Tender laws are really there to prevent a USA business from demanding gold coins or Euros or something.
Why would a business want to do that?
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### Author:  [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/11 "2009-01-13T17:31:58Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#):
>
> BTW we’re literely the only station in the city that still allows people to pump then pay (at least during daylight); hopefully that will change soon and we can finally switch to pre-pay all the time.
Christ, I hated working at a pump-then pay-store. Always some bullshit from the customers. Now, You pay, you pump. Nice and easy. “You don’t trust me?” No, I don’t, now hit the bricks!
Joe
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/12 "2009-01-13T17:36:01Z")
I once went in to get my pump authorized at a pay-to-pump station, came back out, and realized the pump was still locked. Turned out that the guy had authorized the next pump over, and some dude had filled his minivan on my dime.
Needless to say, I was very angry, as was the minivan guy, who accused both me and the clerk of stealing from him in several languages.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/13 "2009-01-13T17:57:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#):
>
> Why would a business want to do that?
Becuase they don’t think American money is worth anything. This was an issue in the past with Colonial “shinplasters”. The Treasury wants to make sure American business will accept American money.
Driver8= _"I don’t think there is any law preventing a business from accepting, or only accepting, foreign currency. "_
Show me one that does accept foriegn currency ONLY.
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### Author:  [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/14 "2009-01-13T22:03:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I once went in to get my pump authorized at a pay-to-pump station, came back out, and realized the pump was still locked. Turned out that the guy had authorized the next pump over, and some dude had filled his minivan on my dime.
>
> Needless to say, I was very angry, as was the minivan guy, who accused both me and the clerk of stealing from him in several languages.
“You stole from me in Choctaw and Gaelic! I demand compensation and a translator!”
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### Author:  [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/15 "2009-01-13T22:23:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Driver8= _"I don’t think there is any law preventing a business from accepting, or only accepting, foreign currency. "_
> Show me one that does accept foriegn currency ONLY.
They aren’t exactly businesses, but I think that US consulates will often only accept payments in US dollars. Since they are US consulates, that is (of course) foreign currency where they are located – and they would not be subject to legal tender laws of the jurisdiction where they are located.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/16 "2009-01-13T22:29:39Z")
> [@Giles](#):
>
> They aren’t exactly businesses, but I think that US consulates will often only accept payments in US dollars. Since they are US consulates, that is (of course) foreign currency where they are located – and they would not be subject to legal tender laws of the jurisdiction where they are located.
US Consulates nearly all accept local tender. Occasionally they suspend local currency transactions in cases of hyperinflation and the like.
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/17 "2009-01-14T13:03:14Z")
> [@wheresgeorge04](#):
>
> Christ, I hated working at a pump-then pay-store. Always some bullshit from the customers. Now, You pay, you pump. Nice and easy. “You don’t trust me?” No, I don’t, now hit the bricks!
Just curious as to why this is? Now you have to face the same customer twice. The first time to pay you, then the second time to get his change. If he pumps then pays, he’s only got to come into the store a single time, and you only have to charge him a single time, and it’s quicker for everyone that chooses not to pay at the pump. Are you in a high-crime area or something where people drive off?
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/18 "2009-01-14T16:44:22Z")
> [@Giles](#):
>
> They aren’t exactly businesses, but I think that US consulates will often only accept payments in US dollars. Since they are US consulates, that is (of course) foreign currency where they are located – and they would not be subject to legal tender laws of the jurisdiction where they are located.
Umm, generally, a consulate has certain extraterritorial rights. Your example is bad in several ways.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/19 "2009-01-14T16:48:13Z")
> [@Balthisar](#):
>
> Just curious as to why this is? Now you have to face the same customer twice. The first time to pay you, then the second time to get his change. If he pumps then pays, he’s only got to come into the store a single time, and you only have to charge him a single time, and it’s quicker for everyone that chooses not to pay at the pump. Are you in a high-crime area or something where people drive off?
Well, sometimes dudes pay X amount, which is less than a fill-up, other times they pay by card.
And not only do you have “pump and dash” you have honest but absent-minded dudes who have forgotten their wallet, or their spouse raided their wallet for that last $20, or they think that a $50 is OK, or they want to pay by a CC that isn’t accepted, or their CC or ATM card is declined, or…
Most pump jockeys think that “pay then pump” is better. Get used to it.
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-tender-and-irreversible-transactions/480804/20 "2009-01-14T17:48:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Most pump jockeys think that “pay then pump” is better. Get used to it.
But now what are you saying “get used to it” in a defensive/argumentative tone? It has no affect on me; I pay at the pump at the same price as cash, or I don’t shop there.
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