# Legal web issues **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 16, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520 "2000-08-16T01:16:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![madd1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@madd1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madd1)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/1 "2000-08-16T01:16:37Z")
I created a web site for a not-for-profit organization. I obtained the URL, designed and published the site from home with my own equipment, and got free space from an ISP. This was voluntary. Now the organization has decided they want it turned over to someone else. This is all fine, but they went around it the wrong way. They told me I would still have creative control, and to just email EVERYTHING and the password to this person. I did that, and then they kicked me off the web site. They also changed the password, and have all of my designs. They have also redesigned the site using my graphics and forms. They have lied to me and stolen my graphics. Do I have a right to tell them that they may not use my designs, graphics and forms? Would I be able to take legal action if they do use them? We are in the same state, the software is mine, the designs are mine, and I have spent 250 hours doing all of this. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/2 "2000-08-16T02:21:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Do I have a right to tell them that they may not use my designs, graphics and forms? Would I be able to take legal action if they do use them? Good question, and one that can be very complex. First of all, it wouldn’t hurt to register a copyright for the graphics. That would help you in any legal battle. Without registering, the best you can do is to tell them to take them down. There are provisions for registering something after it’s been published; check the copyright rules at [http://www.loc.gov/copyright/](http://www.loc.gov/copyright/). The graphics are most likely yours. The one issue is whether this is work made for hire, but since you weren’t an employee, you’re probably in the clear (though they might claim in court it is work for hire). So your first action is to register the copyrights. Next, find a lawyer to send them a nasty letter. That may be enough. If they play hardball, though, it’ll have to go to court. The good thing is that you can force them to pay your legal costs if they lose (if you’ve registered). That may be enough to get them to take things down. The ownership of the designs might be a bit more complex. If you’re serious, talk to a lawyer who specialized in intellectual property. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/3 "2000-08-16T10:09:08Z")
I agree,it is an interesting issue. I’d also want to know whether you bought the Domain in your name or theirs and, if in theirs, was it with your credit card. If it’s in your name, the games over and you win so I guess that’s not the case. The fact you bought it for them might be useful, if circumstantial, evidence in your favour. Isn’t there anything in writing that outlined the original agreement and/or subsequent developments ? \<–trained as a Lawyer some time ago, not practising–\> ---
**Author:** ![CandyMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@CandyMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandyMan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/4 "2000-08-16T13:07:22Z")
Actually, if you did the site for them and the graphics for them, then it is thiers. You can feel slighted and you have every right to feel that way from what it sounds like. The fact remains, once you did the work for them, it was no longer yours. CandyMan ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/5 "2000-08-16T14:35:31Z")
Don’t tell me you didn’t get a written contract first… Try the HTML publishers newsgroup, I bet its been answered there; but since no contract, looks like it belongs to the comp. ---
**Author:** ![labradorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@labradorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labradorian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/6 "2000-08-16T14:41:42Z")
Actually, I think the lack of a contract (and presumably the lack of employee status on the part of the creator, and the lack of formal assignment of CR) would favour the creator. ---
**Author:** ![madd1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@madd1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madd1)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/7 "2000-08-16T17:15:25Z")
Side note: they called the ISP and had them lock me out of ALL of my accounts, not just theirs. Denial of Service? -There was no contract, it was a “Hey, you don’t have a web site. Would you like me to create one?” The work was purely voluntary, not paid. -I used my credit card and they reimbursed me for the URL. -Internet connection, CPU, software all mine. Design, graphics, form and layout mine. -When it was all done, they kicked me in the ass and took all of it, and locked me out so I could not remove my graphics or work. Real nasty bunch, this group. You would be surprised who it is. (Hint, look at my user name) ---
**Author:** ![CandyMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@CandyMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandyMan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/8 "2000-08-16T17:35:13Z")
Locking you out of all your accounts is wrong, but might be fine if they did remburse you for that as well. you said: Now the organization has decided they want it turned over to someone else. This is all fine, but… but its not. If it was you would just call them all assholes and let it go at that. You did it all on your own for them, and they said f\*\*k you very much. Lesson learned I should think. CandyMan ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/9 "2000-08-16T18:39:54Z")
CandyMan, Sorry, but all of my experience in the pre-press and publishing industry is that you are wrong. Without a specific written contract specifying the transfer of ownership to the client, ownership ALWAYS resides with the creator of the work. That’s why most of our contracts have the ‘Work-for-hire’ clause identifying that the holder of the copyright is the client, not us. I also believe that in modern copyright law, registration, while helpful, is completely unnecessary to establish a copyright. I’ll look for some cites and get back with you. grem ---
**Author:** ![labradorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@labradorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labradorian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/10 "2000-08-16T18:57:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grem0517 \* > \*\*CandyMan, > > I also believe that in modern copyright law, registration, while helpful, is completely unnecessary to establish a copyright. I’ll look for some cites and get back with you. > > \*\* IIRC, all that the registration does is create a rebuttable presumption that the CR belongs to the person the registry says it does. Note the word “rebuttable”. The other party can always provide evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/11 "2000-08-16T19:53:07Z")
Aha! **Work for hire** > [@](#): > > Whenever a work-for-hire question is raised, freelance photojournalists should remember one simple thought. Unless one signs a written work-for-hire agreement which effectively transfers copyright ownership to another party, the photojournalist retains the rights to the images. > from [Copyright and news photography](http://metalab.unc.edu/nppa/sherer/sherer14.html) **Registration** I was right and wrong. You don’t have to register in order to own the copyright, but you do have to register to sue to enforce it! > [@](#): > > In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following: > [ul] > [li]Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.[/li][li]Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.[/li][li]If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.[/li][li]If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney’s fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.[/li][li]Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies. For additional information, request Publication No. 563 from: Commissioner of Customs, ATTN: IPR Branch, U. S. Customs Service, 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue, N. W., Washington, D.C. 20229.[/li][/ul] > Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright. Unlike the law before 1978, when a work has been registered in unpublished form, it is not necessary to make another registration when the work becomes published, although the copyright owner may register the published edition, if desired. > from [US Copyright Office](http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html) grem ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/12 "2000-08-16T22:23:53Z")
Web sites are like real estate. You visit a house, design new furniture, artwork, etc, then one day they won’t let you in. I would guess they own it all… ---
**Author:** ![CandyMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@CandyMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandyMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/13 "2000-08-17T13:27:43Z")
I do not think that it falls under work for hire. As a volunteer are treated the same as an employee? In a legal sense, I mean. This isn’t like submitting a photo to a magazine for publication at all. He did the work on his own, the site went up into an area paid for by them. IANAL, but there seems to be a big difference there. CandyMan ---
**Author:** ![CandyMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@CandyMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandyMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/14 "2000-08-17T13:55:32Z")
Ok, I found this: Generally, the copyright is owned by the person (or persons) who create the work. However, if the work is created by employee within the scope of his or her employment, the employer owns the copyright because it is a “work for hire.” this is out of: [http://www.eff.org/pub/CAF/law/ip-primer](http://www.eff.org/pub/CAF/law/ip-primer) As a volunteer are you not basically an employee that is waiving payment?? The scope of his job as to create the web pages. I think its pretty clear. CandyMan ---
**Author:** ![etgaw1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@etgaw1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etgaw1)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/15 "2000-08-17T14:22:00Z")
But he said there was no contract. I _think_ this analogy would work. Say you are a good painter, and a freind of yours asks you to paint a picture for him. You do so and he hangs it up on his wall. This freind then sells it to someone else, claiming that is his, doesn’t tell you and doesn’t give you anymoney. Wouldn’t that be extremely unlawful? ---
**Author:** ![CandyMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@CandyMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandyMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/16 "2000-08-17T14:32:54Z")
No, it wouldn’t. You GAVE it to him. Immoral, yes. Illegal, no. Just as in this case, he GAVE his time and work efforts away. CandyMan ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/17 "2000-08-17T14:37:02Z")
"But he said there was no contract. ``` I think this analogy would work. Say you are a good painter, and a freind of yours asks you to paint a picture for him. You do so and he hangs it up on his wall. This freind then sells it to someone else, claiming that is his, doesn't tell you and doesn't give you anymoney. Wouldn't that be extremely unlawful?" ``` Not at all. Thomas Kincade does that all the time, check him out here. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/18 "2000-08-17T17:04:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Internet connection, CPU, software all mine. Design, graphics, form and layout mine This alone (IMHO) breaks the work-for-hire theory. They didn’t supply the material, the place, or the equipment. They didn’t set your work schedule. Sounds like the majority of the work-for-hire conditions have NOT been met. There was no actual or implied employer/employee relationship established or assumed. grem ---
**Author:** ![CandyMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@CandyMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandyMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/19 "2000-08-17T19:06:48Z")
I think what it is going to boil down to is this question: Is a volunteer an employee? If a lady does work for the red cross and someone there harasses her, are they liable for sexual harassment? Does the OP qualify as Work-for-hire, etc. Take it to the SUPREME COURT! We are behind ya! CandyMan ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520/20 "2000-08-18T15:27:31Z")
CandyMan, defending on principle would cost a fortune, far more than his work is worth. But then he can always start a new web site: [xxxxxxxxsucks.com](http://xxxxxxxxsucks.com) & give his side. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-web-issues/29520.md?page=2)