# Legality of a consentual fist fight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 14, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169 "2003-05-14T10:23:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/1 "2003-05-14T10:23:42Z")
I realize this varies by state, but I’m guessing there’s some sort of standard law in most of them. Say 2 people decide they’re going to go out and settle things the ‘old fashioned way’. Assuming no one dies, is there anything legally wrong with that? Or does is the guy who throws the first punch always commiting assault? ---
**Author:** ![DrLiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DrLiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLiver)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/2 "2003-05-14T10:37:07Z")
IANAL but I think they could get in jail for disturbing the peace… However, if its in the confort of their own home and they don’t disturb anyone else (or distroy anything precious); and neither wants to put charges I don’t see how the police (even if they have knowledge of the fight) can arrest them afterwards… However, I’m not sure if they get cought during the fight what would happen or if one of the parties decides to sue or ask police for criminal charges… As it happens I heared of a story (in Canada) of two guys deciding to fight (because of a different concerning which martial art is better); anyway, they apparently went out of a bar and fought somewhere on the street (or park or something) and one of them ended up in the hospital. The loser subsequently tried to sue the other but he got nothing because both parties were consensual to the fight… (I have strong reasons to believe the story is true but have no proof or cite so you’ll have to trust me) ---
**Author:** ![DrLiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DrLiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLiver)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/3 "2003-05-14T10:42:00Z")
distroy = destroy As for “the first person to throw a puch commits assault”, I think it would be more complicated than that, especially if both parties previously agreed to fight. as a slight hijack, I’d like to know, what if they agree to fight and don’t specify the means; and one gets stabbed (say on the leg- so no permanent injury or just a small fleshwound) would the first one be able to sue? and if so, where is the limit set? Say I don’t have a knife but am a highly trained martial artist, don’t tell him and then kick his ass? would that be the same as having a knife? ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/4 "2003-05-14T13:04:50Z")
I was told you couldn’t consent to be harmed, but I can’t remember where… is anyone who actually knows going to turn up? ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/5 "2003-05-14T13:11:19Z")
Don’t boxers have legal fist fights? Wrestlers? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/6 "2003-05-14T13:13:52Z")
I once asked a cop in Michigan about this. He said if one guy hits another guy, they could arrest the first guy for assault & battery. But if the second one hits back, it turns into a fight and they won’t charge either. However, this response was based on pragmatism, not necessarily legal theory. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/7 "2003-05-14T13:16:55Z")
I would think the state could say that they conducted an unlicensed fight, if they wanted to be jerks about it. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/8 "2003-05-14T14:14:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*I would think the state could say that they conducted an unlicensed fight, if they wanted to be jerks about it. \*\* Promotion of illegal fighting can certainly get you in trouble in California. See this story, [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20030510/lo\_kgtv/1612285](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20030510/lo_kgtv/1612285) > [@](#): > > Three producers of the “Bumfights” video pleaded guilty Friday [May 9, 2003] to misdemeanor charges that they paid homeless men to duke it out in front of the camera. > … > All three pleaded guilty to a single charge of conspiracy to promote illegal fighting. > … > Performers typically were paid $5 to $100 by the filmmakers, who contend the fights and stunts were voluntary. I find the phrase “conspiracy to promote _illegal fighting_” a little odd. Was the fighting itself illegal? If so, why weren’t the direct participants charged? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/9 "2003-05-14T14:36:40Z")
Maybe they were deemed incapable of giving informed permission or something. They were both pretty drunk, as I remember it. Also, if no one is making money, that would probably change things. Still, there’s probably a fight statute in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/10 "2003-05-14T15:24:24Z")
Here in San Diego, two guys got into a traffic accident, and started swinging at each other… Then they wised up. They rented a gym, got the licenses, sold tickets and had a boxing match. Raised enough money to fix their cars and donated the surplus to charity. That’s smart! Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/11 "2003-05-14T16:12:25Z")
**Trinopus** , that’s a hell of a story. I can confirm **drliver** ’s supposition about Canada, having unfortunately been involved in a violent altercation several years ago. Some teens attacked me without provocation, and I defended myself by grabbing their arms and throwing them judo-style. When they had enough of that (and some other teens at the scene grabbed the aggressor) I was able to leave the scene and call police, who reacted immediately. They told me that I was lucky I hadn’t fought back by throwing punches or kicking – because if I had, I would have de facto agreed to the fight. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/12 "2003-05-14T16:31:57Z")
Self-defense isn’t the topic of concern here, but since it is sneaking in: When I took a self-defense course, I recall a summary paper a lawyer who attended the karate school wrote up. IIRC, different jurisdictions assess when you can punch back, etc., differently. The general rule is: if you are not in your house and you can run away, you should. In some areas, backing up so that witnesses could say you were trying to get ouf of it, might allow you a punch or two if the assailant continues towards you, but then you should run as soon as the chance is clear. I’m not sure how much abuse you can heap on somebody to make them leave your house, however. Regarding the original OP: wouldn’t it depend on what’s illegal vs what can be effectively prosecuted? I assume the police can arrest you for whatever (assualt, distrubing, etc.) and the prosecutors may have several options for charging you (probably public drunkeness 😉 ). I believe, however, that duels are banned in some states that once had them (_slap_, you’ve offended my honor! where’s my foil? no sissy new-fangled guns for me!). I guess an agreement to fight could be a duel. No? ---
**Author:** ![Janx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Janx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Janx)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/13 "2003-05-14T16:38:07Z")
\*\* Trinopus \*\* wrote: > [@](#): > > …started swinging at each other… Then they wised up. Sounds so \*fantastic \*. Could you maybe link to that story or give me some key words to look for, I would like to know more about it. See kids, thats the nice way to say- \*\* SITE! \*\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/14 "2003-05-14T17:11:27Z")
I posted this over in a GD thread on hazing. Not sure whether it is correct, because I’m a lawyer of very limited skill, and was a downright crappy law student. To what extent could the state prosecute absent a complaint by one party against the other? \*Law school is a long time ago, but I seem to recall a distinction between assault and battery. Based solely upon my recollection from classes long ago that I probably didn’t do too well in: Assault is a realistic threat, that causes the victim to fear harm. Say I’m standing in front of you with my fists clenched, and say “I’m going to beat you up.” Or calling someone names could be a verbal assault. Brandishing a gun or knife could be assault with a deadly weapon. Battery is an impermissable touching. Hitting someone, breaking their ankle, or smearing them with feces is battery, not an assault. In very general terms, you may consider the threat to be the assault, the action is the battery. I also seem to recall from tort class (to distinguish from criminal law) that you are not able to to consent to a battery. Which led to one of the highlights of my law school career. I asked in class: “What if 2 parties mutually agree to participate in activity that will likely result in mutual injury?” Teacher asked: “What did you have in mind, Mr. Dinsdale?” Me: “I was thinking about a little S&M or B&D.” Teacher: “NEXT!”\* I’m not really sure about why boxing is legal. Probably has to do with specific state regulation. That is why NHB contests have trouble finding venues. And just because voluntary activity might reasonably result in injury does not mean **anything goes.** I seem to recall instances where football players sued for excessive or late hits. No cite handy, tho I may look one up later. I did some legal research related to MA a while back. There are many instances where instructors were held responsible for injuries in their schools. Generally related to negligence. Say, the instructor is demonstrating a technique, and the student ends up being injured. Or the instructor allows students of different skill levels to go at it too hard. _I am amazed at the number of folks who teach MA without insurance - often out of their homes._ ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/15 "2003-05-14T17:58:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Janx \* > \*\*Sounds so \*fantastic \*. Could you maybe link to that story or give me some key words to look for, I would like to know more about it. > See kids, thats the nice way to say- \*\* SITE! \*\* > > 😃 \*\* Whimper… I knew when I wrote it that I should have disclaimed it as “Something I heard on the radio, some years ago.” (But I promise it was _not_ on Paul Harvey!) I did some searching, but can’t find it, so, alas, chalk it down as an Urbane Legend. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![micco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@micco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/micco)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/16 "2003-05-14T18:12:28Z")
I have trained with several police officers, and this issue has come up. I’m sure jurisdictions vary wildly, and these were comments made by officers regarding how they would address a situation in the field, which may have nothing to do with how charges actually get filed. That said, the cops’ consensus seemed to be that if a fight was one-sided and witness statements supported the fact that one person started it and that person beat the other badly, there would be a felony-level assault and battery charge. If one person started it and the other reluctant participant won, there would be no charges. If both participants were equally involved, there would likely be a misdemeanor fist-fighting charge for both (though it’s probably something technical like disturbing the peace). I’ve also known several instances where amateur boxing matches were prevented because they were not sanctioned by the appropriate state agency. However, in all cases, it seemed like this was done to perpetuate the monopoly of the boxing authorities to sanction and profit from matches, not to avoid felony assault charges. That is, the threatened penalties were civil actions against the organizers, not criminal action against participants. I wasn’t an insider on these, so there may have been some of both. IANAL, these are second-hand opinions from other non-lawyers, YMMV, etc. However, I can say with some authority that a site does not necessarily provide an adequate cite and even if these anecdotes are urban legends, they are not particularly urbane. ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/17 "2003-05-14T19:44:20Z")
When I was going to college in southern IL, I know the police blotters from time to time contained blurbs about two people getting ticketed/arrested for “fighting by agreement.” It seemed that it was still illegal even witnesses said that everyone agreed to the fight. ([http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring96/032196/beating.html](http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring96/032196/beating.html), also [http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring00/02-22-00/blotter.html](http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring00/02-22-00/blotter.html) 3rd item). In Carbondale at least, it’s a pay-by-mail citation, $75. A [google search](http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring00/02-22-00/blotter.html) turns up several Carbondale-based police blotters relating to the offense, but also several sites regarding various state and municipal codes. It’s often referred to in such codes as “fighting by agreement/dueling.” ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/18 "2003-05-14T20:07:09Z")
When I was going to college in southern IL, I know the police blotters from time to time contained blurbs about two people getting ticketed/arrested for “fighting by agreement.” It seemed that it was still illegal even witnesses said that everyone agreed to the fight. ([http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring96/032196/beating.html](http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring96/032196/beating.html), also [http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring00/02-22-00/blotter.html](http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring00/02-22-00/blotter.html) 3rd item). In Carbondale at least, it’s a pay-by-mail citation, $75. A [google search](http://www.dailyegyptian.com/spring00/02-22-00/blotter.html) turns up several Carbondale-based police blotters relating to the offense, but also several sites regarding various state and municipal codes. It’s often referred to in such codes as “fighting by agreement/dueling.” ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/19 "2003-05-14T20:26:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Janx \* > \*\*See kids, thats the nice way to say- \*\* SITE! \*\* \*\* That’s the incorrect way to say \*\* CITE! \*\* . 😉 Haj ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169/20 "2003-05-14T20:56:49Z")
Alright, I looked up California law on this… I’ll attempt to trim it down, because it is very redundant in phrasing: CALIFORNIA CODES PENAL CODE SECTION 403-420.1 1. Any person, who, within this state, engages in, or instigates, aids, encourages, or does any act to further, a pugilistic contest, or fight, or ring or prize fight, or sparring or boxing exhibition, taking or to take place either within or without this state, between two or more persons, with or without gloves, for any price, reward or compensation, directly or indirectly… shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not less than one hundred dollars nor more than one thousand dollars and be imprisoned in the county jail not less than thirty days nor exceeding one year; provided, however, that amateur boxing exhibitions may be held within this state, of a limited number of rounds… and the contestants weighing one hundred and forty-five pounds or over shall wear gloves of not less than eight ounces each in weight… At every amateur boxing exhibition held in this state and permitted by this section of the Penal Code, any sheriff, constable, marshal, policeman or other peace officer… shall have the right to, and it is hereby declared to be his duty to stop such exhibition, whenever it shall appear to him that the contestants are so unevenly matched or for any other reason… and he may call to his assistance in enforcing his order to stop said exhibition, as many peace officers or male citizens of the state as may be necessary for that purpose. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-a-consentual-fist-fight/175169.md?page=2)