# Legality of arresting someone for vague signals inviting lewd conduct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125 "2012-02-17T12:08:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/21 "2012-02-17T14:54:10Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Further, a normal person who isn’t interested is likey to react negatively, are they not? If I’m in the same position as the officer, I’m going to move my foot away…if actions continue, I’m gonna say ‘Dude what the fuck? Stop.’ Actually, apart from any kind of sex, I think it’s a good thing for it to be illegal to bother someone when he’s in a bathroom stall. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/22 "2012-02-17T15:04:40Z")
Wondering how my morning evolved to hanging my Dope 'rep on defending gay restroom sex… > [@jayjay](#): > > It REALLY sounds like you’re grasping at straws to exonerate Craig. Because the officer didn’t threaten to beat Craig up if he continued, the officer was actually entrapping him? Really? Is the fact that he didn’t wear his special-issue “AIRPORT POLICE”-inscribed jackboots also evidence of entrapment? > > And, as someone who really DID used to haunt restrooms looking for sex, let me tell you that YES, we really did walk up to a stall and peek in and repeatedly make gestures. Generally, there would be at least a few repetitions before a lack of apparent interest prompted me to wait for a more promising prospect to come in. Craig was slightly over the line, actually…he was more persistent than the average stall-crawler would consider prudent. Who said anything about beating anybody up? Now see, threatening to beat some body up should be illegal. Threatening to beat somebody off should not. Never said anything about entrapment, I’m familiar with the legalities and this doesn’t fit the definition. What I was wondering about was how creative the cop was being. And if you don’t think cops get awfully creative in following the letter but not the spirit of the law, you have another thing coming. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Actually, apart from any kind of sex, I think it’s a good thing for it to be illegal to bother someone when he’s in a bathroom stall. Singing ‘I Am the Walrus’ at the top of my lungs in a bathroom stall should be illegal? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/23 "2012-02-17T15:11:04Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Point being that he didn’t DO anything to anybody else. Communicating a desire shouldn’t be something one can be arreted for, outside of harmful acts. > > So it’s illegal to be annoying? Yes, it IS illegal to be annoying. That’s called harrassment. Especialy, it is illegal to be persistently annoying in a place where (most) people want privacy, like a public restroom. Setting and context is relevant - the same behaviour in a bar probably would not be harrasment, unless it was a lot more aggressive and persisted a lot longer. Craig had an opportunity for a defence - like “he smiled at me” or “he didn’t say ‘Shoo!’” or whatever. His sole defence apparently was “Do you know who I am? I’m a United States senator. You can’t do this to me!” ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/24 "2012-02-17T15:11:39Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > So it’s illegal to be annoying? I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! … That Larry didn’t Criag when you were younger, either. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/25 "2012-02-17T15:16:30Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Yes, it IS illegal to be annoying. That’s called harrassment. Especialy, it is illegal to be persistently annoying in a place where (most) people want privacy, like a public restroom. Setting and context is relevant - the same behaviour in a bar probably would not be harrasment, unless it was a lot more aggressive and persisted a lot longer. > > Craig had an opportunity for a defence - like “he smiled at me” or “he didn’t say ‘Shoo!’” or whatever. His sole defence apparently was “Do you know who I am? I’m a United States senator. You can’t do this to me!” So if I sing ‘I Am the Walrus’ or play the drums from Wipeout on the stall wall, can/should I be arrested? Because that would be annoying as fuck. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/26 "2012-02-17T15:18:26Z")
Ok see I am the king of awkwardly phrased threads, ahem let me try this again… I understand it is a law on the books, and I realize you can be arrested for being a ham sandwich, but I’m wondering if this law is uncomfortably open to abuse and unconstitutional even. Do I have a first amendment right to ask guys if they like to hang out in the sky? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/27 "2012-02-17T15:34:33Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Singing ‘I Am the Walrus’ at the top of my lungs in a bathroom stall should be illegal? Yes, maybe, if you’re repeatedly trying to direct my attention to your singing by sticking your hands or feet into my stall, knocking on the door or partitions, peeking in through the gap, addressing me, or other activity directed at getting my specific attention or reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/28 "2012-02-17T15:36:41Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Do I have a first amendment right to ask guys if they like to hang out in the sky? Of particular relevance is whether you’re asking **elucidator** and what your matrimonial intentions are. … It is not uncommon for a law to be deemed unconstitutionally vague. There’s even a [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconstitutional_vagueness)page on it with examples. In fact, there’s also a page on [Void for Vagueness](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_for_vagueness)too. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/29 "2012-02-17T15:43:30Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Ok see I am the king of awkwardly phrased threads, ahem let me try this again… > > I understand it is a law on the books, and I realize you can be arrested for being a ham sandwich, but I’m wondering if this law is uncomfortably open to abuse and unconstitutional even. > > Do I have a first amendment right to ask guys if they like to hang out in the sky? Well your majesty, I don’t know how this is more open to abuse than any other law. I will tell you how it works in my town. There is a spot in local park that is known as a pick up spot. Every now and then we get complaints and have to go there and enforce lewdness statutes. Guys are not that subtle, there is no need to push things towards entrapment or anything else. We get the complaints because the meet up is in a parking lot next to a play ground and they use the playground bathroom or the nature trails next to it. Always seems to be married guys. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/30 "2012-02-17T15:52:11Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > So if I sing ‘I Am the Walrus’ or play the drums from Wipeout on the stall wall, can/should I be arrested? > > Because that would be annoying as fuck. If you are doing it in public, too loud - yes, there’s an app, I mean, a law for that. If you are doing it in private place, and don’t shut up and / or leave when asked to by the owner’s representatives, yes. If you are loitering a long time, or do it 2 feet in front of my face in a threatening manner, or in an inappropriate place like a public restroom, or your behaviour is aimed at someone who does not want to be disturbed, then yes, you will be arrested. When it comes to appropriate public behaviour, it’s a very grey area. The only defence why I might consider Craig had a case was “He never told me to stop”. However, people may seriously shy or intimidated… or may belive it’s dangerous to confront a whacko stranger behaving erratically. (ever watch “Trainspotting”?) These unassertive people also have a right to be left alone in a private place, and for men nothing is more private, and implies “leave me alone”, than a restroom. I suspect if Larry had just sat in the stall singing “I Wanna Be Loved By You” to the world in general, he likely would not have been arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/31 "2012-02-17T16:10:13Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Point being that he didn’t DO anything to anybody else. Communicating a desire shouldn’t be something one can be arreted for, outside of harmful acts. Apparently our legal code doesn’t agree with you, as prostitutes are routinely arrested for solicitation without actually DOING a sex act. I recall that when this was in the news, the officer made clear that Craig’s actions were utterly consistent with known techniques of soliciting bathroom sex, as has been confirmed by some posters in this thread. Maybe you missed that at the time? This point was not stressed in the Wikipedia article you linked, but there was nothing vague about it at all. Just because you personally aren’t familiar with it doesn’t make it vague. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/32 "2012-02-17T16:17:47Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Apparently our legal code doesn’t agree with you, as prostitutes are routinely arrested for solicitation without actually DOING a sex act. > > I recall that when this was in the news, the officer made clear that Craig’s actions were utterly consistent with known techniques of soliciting bathroom sex, as has been confirmed by some posters in this thread. Maybe you missed that at the time? This point was not stressed in the Wikipedia article you linked, but there was nothing vague about it at all. Just because you personally aren’t familiar with it doesn’t make it vague. I didn’t link a Wikipedia article, so I’m not sure if the rest of your post is directed at me or not, but I’ll reply… I see that the law doesn’t agree with me…or I don’t agree with the law, take your pick. Solicitation of or actual prostitution shouldn’t be illegal either, in my opinion. I never argued that Craig’s actions didn’t meet the criteria for what he was charged with. My point was that I find it shaky ground to arrest somebody because they express the intention or desire to do something. Questioning the law itself, or the enforcement of it, rather than questioning what Craig did or did not do. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/33 "2012-02-17T16:44:24Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I didn’t link a Wikipedia article, so I’m not sure if the rest of your post is directed at me or not, but I’ll reply… My apologies. I somehow conflated you with the OP. > [@](#): > > I see that the law doesn’t agree with me…or I don’t agree with the law, take your pick. Solicitation of or actual prostitution shouldn’t be illegal either, in my opinion. > > I never argued that Craig’s actions didn’t meet the criteria for what he was charged with. My point was that I find it shaky ground to arrest somebody because they express the intention or desire to do something. Questioning the law itself, or the enforcement of it, rather than questioning what Craig did or did not do. Yes, I see your point. There is certainly not unanimity of opinion on the matter throughout the country. The issue is akin to our drug laws, where both sides have salient points to make but there is a lot of inertia that tends to discourage change. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/34 "2012-02-17T16:46:40Z")
> [@grude](#): > > That is pretty damn vague, I’m seen other articles claiming gait, posture, and whistling can all get you arrested too. Am I the only one wondering If I’m gonna get arrested the next time I go to take a leak while kinda drunk and whistling Lola by the Kinks:dubious: If you have ever read any case law on soliciting and such, the courts have permitted such seemingly protected 1st AM expressions to be used to establish probable cause for an arrest. I can’t remember the verbiage exactly but something of legal import such as street slang or commonly used body language, etc., used by or recognized by a supsect may be a clue a crime is about to be committed. The US SC has also ruled that although PC is needed to arrest, it does not have to be crystal clear PC and even borderline weak can pass intial muster. I can’t remember the exact case I am thinking of though. Say the girl standing on a street corner says “want to have some fun” and the man says sure. FUN is/can be an aphorism for sex. When an arrest of this nature is made police often look at what is known as the “Totality of the circumstances”, that is, combined facts that individually may not establish probable cause, but collectively will. Craig also used the defense that the Constitution barred his arrest as he was on the way to Washington to vote, this had no legal merit. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/35 "2012-02-17T16:50:31Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Welcome to Amerika, wher anyone can be arrested for anything, and the pigs may need to come up with a reason after they pull you in. > > Putting aside my '60s Radical hat, it’s not that it needs to stand up in court, but you can be detained for any number of vague reasons if the officer feels it is warranted. I was arrested in Vegas for having bloodshot eyes. The cops said they knew I was on meth. I wore contacts the day before, worked overtime until 5 A.M., hit a jackpot on a Sam’s Town machine on my way home, went home to sleep and woke up at noon. After eating a buffet and doing some errands, shortly after dusk, I forgot to turn my headlights on pulling out of Hard Rock Casino onto one of the most well lit streets in the world, in the only city whose lights you can actually see from the moon. :smack: Needless to say, I was “kicked out” after 48 hours in jail, never saw a judge as it didn’t go to trial. I walked over and played some slot machines at the Golden Nugget next door, and there were still some drunken tourists left over from the New Year’s Eve celebrations. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/36 "2012-02-17T16:54:49Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > say the girl standing on a street corner says “want to have some fun” and the man says sure. yahtzee!! ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/37 "2012-02-17T16:57:22Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > Needless to say, I was “kicked out” after 48 hours in jail, never saw a judge as it didn’t go to trial. If you are arrested WITHOUT a warrant and still held in custody, the Constitution mandates an arraignment and or probable cause hearing within 48 hours no longer barring court emergencies. Since no “formal” charge was made, you had to be released. Some states permit a PC hearing without the defendant present though. How long ago was this? You may still be able to see an Attorney to sue for possible false arrest. The fact no formal charge was made is a + that no PC existed. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/38 "2012-02-17T17:04:00Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > may still be able to see an Attorney to sue for possible false arrest. > > The fact no formal charge was made is a + that no PC existed. The joke is that, as you pointed out, PC doesn’t really have to mean anything other than the cop wanted to make an arrest. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/39 "2012-02-17T17:12:59Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > The joke is that, as you pointed out, PC doesn’t really have to mean anything other than the cop wanted to make an arrest. FALSE arrest suits have been won before, any crooked cop can lie about an arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125/40 "2012-02-17T17:25:38Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > SNIP > > How long ago was this? You may still be able to see an Attorney to sue for possible false arrest. > > The fact no formal charge was made is a + that no PC existed. I thought sovereign immunity attached to law enforcement actions. Did that go away in the last few decades? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-arresting-someone-for-vague-signals-inviting-lewd-conduct/613125.md?page=3)