# Legality of UW Shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934 "2017-01-23T15:43:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/41 "2017-01-23T23:08:03Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I guess another point is if you are carrying a gun, do you want to get into a non-gun altercation with another person (i.e. to stop an assault.) This could still result in say, a grappling match, the other person discovering the gun and taking it out of a pocket or holster, which could be easier than wrestling it out of your grip. Sounds kind of like the George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin confrontation. As for myself, I don’t intend to ever get into a non-gun altercation while carrying. My first effort will be to avoid any physical confrontation, but I suspect any physical confrontation thrust upon me will likely become a gun fight. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/42 "2017-01-23T23:15:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sorry, you’re right, I misread 1). The gun owners shouldn’t need to make snap judgements about the intentions of the person wrestling their gun away. The fact that they’re trying to wrestle their gun away ought to be enough to justify lethal self-defense. Unfortunately, most people who see someone (other than a peace officer) aiming waving a gun are likely to either run away or try to wrestle it away. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/43 "2017-01-23T23:19:39Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > Do you think in Utah that if a gunman tries to rob a liquor store, he can claim self defense if he kills a clerk trying to take away his gun? > > As near as I can tell, that’s roughly what happened in this case. > > The issue largely comes down to whether the shooter could reasonably claim he was defending others when he drew his gun. If not, he doesn’t have the right to wave the gun around or threaten others with it. Doing so (probably) means he was committing a felony with a gun. Thus, other people were reasonably entitled to protect everyone else in their vicinity from him. He doesn’t have the right to self defense to stop others who are stopping him from committing a felony - assault with a deadly weapon or worse. This whole scenario is like a nightmare bar exam scenario. There are several legal issues at play: 1. The general rule that lethal force may be employed if one reasonably believes it is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or others. 2. An initial aggressor may not rely on lethal self defense unless he unambiguously withdraws himself from his initial act of aggression. 3. A person can reasonably believe that he is defending himself or others, yet cause another to reasonably believe that the first person is an unlawful aggressor. There are simply not enough facts from the OP or the video to decide this. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/44 "2017-01-23T23:22:10Z")
ETA: a few intermediate posts made the same point I while I was typing & revising. I see **HurricaneDitka** says he at least has internalized the punchline: don’t draw except in defense of yourself, and don’t draw until you’ve decided to fire. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … > Regardless of the legal consequences, it would be an unfortunate tragedy if one “good guy” shot another “good guy” because he mistook the first “good guy” for a bad guy. It’s a risk that CCW permittees and plainsclothes police officers should be acutely aware of, and that we hope other people with guns (like uniformed officers) are at least somewhat aware of. > Sorry, you’re right, I misread 1). The gun owners shouldn’t need to make snap judgements about the intentions of the person wrestling their gun away. The fact that they’re trying to wrestle their gun away ought to be enough to justify lethal self-defense. OTOH, If I’m a bystander standing within a few feet of a person who suddenly pulls a gun for no reason I can ascertain, I know that my best move to improve my safety is to attack full-on before this guy I know nothing about aims my way. Outside 20 feet maybe my better move is to run. The one thing I know for certain is that just standing there waiting to see what happens next is how spree killers notch up such impressive scores. So now I’m the one with the snap judgment to make. This is the crux of the whole societal dilemma. Unlike in Wild West movies you can’t tell by the hat color who is Good and who is Bad. In my view in this particular case as best we understand it it’s maybe a justifiable shooting by Mr. armed citizen against the guy who tried to disarm him. And equally, had the disarmer succeeded then shot the gun owner that too would have been equally justifiable. Once the gun was exposed in the middle of a crowd everybody nearby was in a fight for some outcome of a life/death experience. The CCW carrier (unless he’s just a bully/jerk, and we have no evidence of that in this case) is generally thinking along the lines of “I’m doing what I need to do to protect myself from such threats as may appear.” The unarmed bystander is thinking exactly the same thing with exactly the same moral and legal standing. Drawing a weapon puts everyone within range in an incremental degree of danger. Danger they’re entitled to protect themselves against. None of us can know that everyone around us is seeing the same threats we do and is having the same responses. When a firearm is introduced into a scenario the stakes go way up and also the instability goes way up. As a non-CCW gun owner who carried back in my military days I get both sides. But until gun carriers can absorb the lesson that, once drawn, they \*are \*a threat to everyone around them we’re going to keep having incidents like this. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/45 "2017-01-23T23:23:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Unfortunately, most people who see someone (other than a peace officer) aiming waving a gun are likely to either run away or try to wrestle it away. Yup, and the “run away” option is vastly preferred to the “try to wrestle it away”, particularly if there’s some potential for misunderstanding the situation (e.g. is that an undercover cop who’s holding a most-wanted criminal at gun-point or is that a dirtbag robbing a liquor store?). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/46 "2017-01-23T23:29:38Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > And equally, had the disarmer succeeded then shot the gun owner that too would have been equally justifiable. This depends somewhat on the circumstances of the takeaway. For example, in the scuffle, did the disarmer manage to render the CCWer unconscious? Is he lying face down on the pavement by the time he can get the gun under control and bring it to bear? If he then shoots the face-down non-moving “threat” in the back, he’s probably in for a world of trouble. On the other extreme, if in the heat of the scuffle, he manages to get the weapon pointed at the “threat”'s torso and pulls the trigger, he’s probably justified. From his reasonable belief, he may have just put down a spree-shooter-in-the-making. There are all sorts of possibilities in between those two extremes too, with accompanying levels of justification. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/47 "2017-01-23T23:31:15Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > ETA: a few intermediate posts made the same point I while I was typing & revising. I see **HurricaneDitka** says he at least has internalized the punchline: don’t draw except in defense of yourself, and don’t draw until you’ve decided to fire. There are circumstances I might draw in defense of another as well, but I try to be aware of the dangerous situation I would put myself into by doing so. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/48 "2017-01-23T23:34:46Z")
As a counter-point I want to offer this recent store of a “good guy with a gun” saving a cop’s life: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/us/arizona-good-samaritan-kills-man-beating-trooper/](http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/us/arizona-good-samaritan-kills-man-beating-trooper/) > [@](#): > > An Arizona trooper who had been shot and was being beaten by a man with a pistol was saved Thursday by a motorist who killed his attacker, authorities said. > > … > > Col. Frank Milstead, director of the Public Safety Department, said he would like to thank the man who stepped in. “I don’t know that my trooper would be alive today without his assistance,” he said, according to CNN affiliate KNXV-TV in Phoenix. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/49 "2017-01-23T23:36:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This depends somewhat on the circumstances of the takeaway. For example, in the scuffle, did the disarmer manage to render the CCWer unconscious? Is he lying face down on the pavement by the time he can get the gun under control and bring it to bear? If he then shoots the face-down non-moving “threat” in the back, he’s probably in for a world of trouble. > > On the other extreme, if in the heat of the scuffle, he manages to get the weapon pointed at the “threat”'s torso and pulls the trigger, he’s probably justified. From his reasonable belief, he may have just put down a spree-shooter-in-the-making. > > There are all sorts of possibilities in between those two extremes too, with accompanying levels of justification. Agree completely. Maybe it’s thought about more than it’s talked about, but in the vast number of “CCW:good or bad idea?” threads we’ve had I’ve seen very few absolutist CCW defenders make clear their recognition that once they draw they’re part of the problem for everybody else, not part of the solution. Solo at home? There is nobody else. Out with your spouse for a wilderness hike? There’s probably nobody else. At the grocery store? Plenty of somebody elses. Many in close proximity. And the CCW holder just became a huge perceived threat to every one of them. People can and should act on their perceptions. After all, the CCW did. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/50 "2017-01-23T23:38:22Z")
It’s been discussed, to varying degrees of detail, in every CCW course I’ve ever sat in on. It’s also one of several “what-if” scenarios that comes up in discussions among CCW permitees, both online and in-person from time to time. Still, more education and awareness on the issue is never a bad thing, which is why I think this thread is awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/51 "2017-01-23T23:45:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Yup, and the “run away” option is vastly preferred to the “try to wrestle it away”, particularly if there’s some potential for misunderstanding the situation (e.g. is that an undercover cop who’s holding a most-wanted criminal at gun-point or is that a dirtbag robbing a liquor store?) Sure, but as you say, detached reflection is not required of the man standing by the gunman. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/52 "2017-01-23T23:45:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s been discussed, to varying degrees of detail, in every CCW course I’ve ever sat in on. It’s also one of several “what-if” scenarios that comes up in discussions among CCW permitees, both online and in-person from time to time. Still, more education and awareness on the issue is never a bad thing, which is why I think this thread is awesome. Good to know; thanks. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/53 "2017-01-24T00:01:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure, but as you say, detached reflection is not required of the man standing by the gunman. Yup, and if he decided that in the particular circumstances he found himself in, his best option for survival was to attack the gunman and try to seize his weapon, I’m unlikely to condemn him for it. It’s not a choice I’d make except in the direst of circumstances, but frankly, I hope to never find myself unarmed while standing next to a gunman, and have arranged my life such that it is unlikely to happen. I might encourage anyone considering such an action, to pause for the briefest of moments and try to evaluate the circumstances. Try to ascertain the gunman’s motives. Is he yelling “stop! police!” and pointing it at a man running away? Or did he just step into your movie theater or French class and open fire on people seemingly at random? I’m fairly confident that this little exercise would serve most people who find themselves in such situation very well, although I admit there are some ambiguous edge cases that it can be difficult to understand the motives of the person holding the gun quickly enough to make life-saving decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/54 "2017-01-24T00:24:50Z")
I guess it’s very easy for all the pro-gun people to put themselves in the shoes of the guy who whipped out his gun, and then got attacked, and shot a guy in supposed self-defense. It’s apparently a lot harder for you all to put yourself in the shoes of someone standing by who sees some random guy whip out a gun. Nope, it’s always the guy with the gun who’s the hero defending himself from the unarmed thug. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/55 "2017-01-24T00:48:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I guess it’s very easy for all the pro-gun people to put themselves in the shoes of the guy who whipped out his gun, and then got attacked, and shot a guy in supposed self-defense. > > It’s apparently a lot harder for you all to put yourself in the shoes of someone standing by who sees some random guy whip out a gun. > > Nope, it’s always the guy with the gun who’s the hero defending himself from the unarmed thug. Who’s saying the guy with the gun was 100% in the right and the man who was shot was in the wrong? I’m honestly confused. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/56 "2017-01-24T00:51:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It’s apparently a lot harder for you all to put yourself in the shoes of someone standing by who sees some random guy whip out a gun. Wasn’t my post #53, just 23 minutes before yours, doing exactly this? ETA: gun owners are neither _always_ heroes nor are the always villains. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/57 "2017-01-24T01:24:47Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I guess it’s very easy for all the pro-gun people to put themselves in the shoes of the guy who whipped out his gun, and then got attacked, and shot a guy in supposed self-defense. > > It’s apparently a lot harder for you all to put yourself in the shoes of someone standing by who sees some random guy whip out a gun. > > Nope, it’s always the guy with the gun who’s the hero defending himself from the unarmed thug. Could you point to a single poster who has done this? Almost everyone has struggled with the idea that the person shot could legally be in the right, yet still be legally shot. It is an unfortunate incident no matter your thoughts on guns or concealed carry. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/58 "2017-01-24T01:29:53Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Of course that is not the best quality video but I think you are correct that there was no initial reason to take out the gun. From what I can see there was a scuffle but not anything rising to a felony or anyone in danger of serious harm. If that’s the case I don’t understand how the shooting would be justified? If he had the gun brandished for an unlawful purpose how is the shooting justified? Well, it could be a situation where drawing the weapon was a technical violation of the law, but nonetheless the third party was not in objective reasonable fear of harm to himself or a third party. Do we know what the shooter did when he drew his weapon? Did he point it at one of the people engaged in a scuffle? Did he have it in his hand, but kept close at his side? This whole thing will be so fact specific, with so many likely conflicting stories by the witnesses, that it will be difficult to get a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/59 "2017-01-24T02:21:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The logical next step by someone who seizes a gun from the owner, may well be to use it on the owner, within seconds or split-seconds. Or, it may not be. He may be seizing the gun not to use it himself, but to prevent the _owner_ from using it. I’m not sure about the wisdom of a law which provides a defence for killing someone because you think he _might_ be about to kill you. And, if that were the law applicable here, the have-a-go hero who pulled a gun to stop what he believed to be an assault in progress could himself have been lawfully shot by someone else who saw him pull his gun, but didn’t see the putative assault in progress, or didn’t think it amount to justification for pulling a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934/60 "2017-01-24T02:29:51Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Could you point to a single poster who has done this? Almost everyone has struggled with the idea that the person shot could legally be in the right, yet still be legally shot. It is an unfortunate incident no matter your thoughts on guns or concealed carry. Oh, unfortunate, innit? I mean, the awesome responsibility of being a gun carrier, and occasionally having to shoot an innocent person and all. Still, small price to pay, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-uw-shooting/777934.md?page=4)