Legalizing and Regulating Prostitution

…why would she/he need to register in the first place?

Are you planning on making the companies register secret? On allowing businesses to run with anonymous owners? How is merely allowing a sex worker to trade as a business supposed to stop their public history from following them?

I’m frequently amazed at how many people on this board fail at reading comprehension.

If you look at my points #4 and 5, you’ll see that the prostitute’s business name would be public, but their real name would be private.

How in the world you take that to mean that people would be able to tell that “Candy Jones” is the same person as Jane Smith is utterly beyond me.

Forgive me for asking but it sounds like in some ways NZ might be encouraging prostitution?

I know people have different beliefs but I do NOT want prostitution to ever be seen as a “respectable” career choice we teach in our schools.

I mean Yes, I see your point about how NZ law has helped the sex workers avoid abuse and gain respectability but I wonder if it goes too far?

…were you addressing me? Feel free to quote me if you were, so that people you weren’t actually addressing don’t feel like you were randomly addressing me.

If you were addressing me, then you missed my point entirely.

Merely using a business name does not make the person’s real name private. If it did, then there would be no accountability to consumers whatsoever. In NZ to operate as a sole trader, I am legally required to list my actual real name along with my business name in any formal correspondence and in advertising, or anywhere my business name is displayed. So if my business name were “Candy Jones”, on a formal register I would have to state “Jane Smith trading as Candy Jones.” Over in the States, every state has their own rules around starting a business. Most states require a business licence to even operate as a sole trader, and if you form a company then you name is publicly displayed as a share holder in the companies register. You might have to run a newspaper advertisement for a couple of weeks to let people know you are registering the name. You have over 50 states: all with different rules on how to set up a business. How are you going to standardise the process so that names are not associated with businesses in every single state?

How will people know that Candy Jones is Jane Smith? Because they would most probably be legally required to tell people, and it would be a simple thing for people to match registered business names with their real one.

And you forget that their real names will be held on a register held by the Department of Health. And despite the excellent privacy laws that health providers are required to hold themselves too in the US, there is always the possibility that things might leak. And the police would probably have to have access if they are to enforce breaches of the licence, and to be quite blunt, sex workers in most places have never trusted the police (with good reason).

You state that there would be “no public history to follow her.” Simply allowing them to trade under a business name is a piss-poor way of making sure that happened. Trust in the system is the biggest thing that sex workers do not have. The system has never protected them, has never worked for them, and throws them in jail and treats them like pariahs at every opportunity. After decades of being treated that way, you expect them overnight to simply trust the state with keeping their identities confidential? Its not going to happen.

…I’m not quite sure I understand the question. We are talking about two consenting adults mutually agreeing to exchange sex for money. Why do you think the government should be in the business of either discouraging this or encouraging this? If people choose to do it, that’s up to them.

There are many career choices that are not talked about in schools. There are not encouraged to be rubbish collectors, or pot washers, or laundry assistants, or checkout operators. I really don’t think you have to worry about this one.

What would you define as “too far?” After 13 years of law reform, can you point out any examples? The number of sex workers since the reforms were enacted have remained pretty static. But even if they hadn’t, and numbers were up, why would that be a problem?

Because of what prostitution is. Its a person selling sexual acts. That could be going all out in a hotel room or simply giving oral sex in the backseat of a car.

Yeah I know people act like prostitutes are just another kind of respectable street vendor or business person but think about really what they do. Would you want your sister, mother, or daughter doing it? How about brother, father, or son? If so would you go out and help them advertise? Would you tell your best friend to give them some business? Heck would you use their “services” yourself? I work with a couple of guys who regularly see prostitutes. They are some of the most scummy guys you can find. The thought of a person I love and care about having to lower themselves to give these guys head makes me almost vomit.

Now you ask me for numbers and I dont know anything about that but what I do know is human compassion and love for family. This is why I dont visit strip bars or buy pornography. I wouldnt want someone I love to be a part of it.

…so sex for money.

I get it. Thats just what I said.

So whats the problem again?

There are plenty of jobs I wouldn’t want my sister, mother or daughter to do. My mum has worked hard at her job for the last 40 years and I just want her to retire and enjoy life, but she won’t do it. I don’t like it: but it isn’t my life. And she is entitled to keep on working regardless of my feelings.

And don’t think we haven’t heard these appeals to emotion before. So you know a couple of scummy guys? So do I. And I know plenty of non-scummy guys. If a family member wanted to become a sex worker, I’d support them as much as I could and would do everything I could to make sure they were safe and happy.

If you don’t know the numbers then go find out the numbers. Don’t speak from a position of ignorance. And ultimately it doesn’t matter what you want. This isn’t about you or your body. If someone you love wants to be part of something that makes you want to vomit, then you have a choice to make. You can either love them unconditionally regardless of what they have decided to do with their lives, or you can make them feel terrible because they are doing something that makes you feel icky. Its all up to you.

Truck drivers do, although I think it’s annually for them. You seem to think that a legalized sex profession would be different than any other legal profession. I say not. If you choose a profession where your health could endanger the public, then get licensed and tested.

Not if one is doing it for free. My wife can cut my hair every day with no need to register. She can cut her friends’ hair for free all day long. As soon as she takes paying customers, it’s required. In the US, once you take money for a service your responsibility/liability for harm to the client increases.

There is no such thing as “safe” sex. There are prophylactic precautions, and IMHO medical checkups should be among them.

Certify the one making a living as a landlord, but not the ones making a living sharing bodily fluiids? Not sure I see any logical there at all.

Because she is operating as her own brothel operator/pimp. Porn actors in the US have to register and submit to medical testing on a frequent basis. I don’t see that industry disappearing.

All current arguments for legalization. With legalization comes regulation, period.

See porn industry example above. Registering and compusory medical checks have reduced STD’d in that industry so much that when it happens it’s big news.

It is the same, and my advice would be “Get over it, the state is going to keep tabs on you if for no other reason than tax collection”. With the benefits of legalization comes the regulation.

You won’t change my mind and I won’t change yours. We’ve shared opinions. Different cultures, different world views, etc. I’m willing to leave it at that.

It’s not about what you want. No one would be forcing you or your friends or family to engage in the sex trade; either as a buyer or a provider of services. Also, prostitutes are not required to service anyone who shows up when it’s a legal service.

…truck drivers have to have annual STD tests? They are forced to pull down their pants and expose themselves every year? America is more fucked up than I originally thought. Why would they be forced to do something like that?

I don’t think that at all.

I think that every profession should be assessed and the need for certification should be made on an industry by industry basis. Just because one industry requires certification, it doesn’t mean that every industry should require it.

Every single profession where the worker has interaction with the public could endanger the public. There are just varying degrees of risk, and that risk should determine whether or not certification should be required. Here are the OSH guidelines for the sex industry.

But simply having increased responsibility/liability for harm doesn’t mean that people working in an industry need to get certified.

Oh give me a break. Don’t be disingenuous. You know perfectly well what “safe sex” means in common language. It means taking prophylactic precautions and taking medical check ups. There is even a wikipedia page on it.

You want to certify actors on stage who share a kiss? Nanny state indeed.

The decision to certify brothels and brothel keepers was a logical one. Its about providing a safe environment for sex workers to work in. It is something outside the scope of sex workers to control, hence certification.

Porn actors in the US are not routinely thrown in jail every day. The industry isn’t going to disappear because thanks to legal precedent the industry is legal.

Sex work in the United States is not legal. Sex workers are already underground. Making it legal but forcing registration will just keep the industry underground.

Who is arguing for no regulation?

And as I said: just because one industry requires certification that doesn’t mean another one should require it.

Here is a report prepared by the Scarlet Alliance that you might want to read. From the abstract:

Lets be honest here: there is no way that a society as puritanical as the United States will every legalize sex work outside of isolated places like Nevada. And sex workers in Nevada are literally confined to living in “farms”, and paraded in front of clients for inspection. The one place in the United States that allows legal sex work and they have chosen to do it in the most dehumanizing way possible, where the women/men have the least amount of control.

I don’t think that throwing people in jail for the crime of having sex would ever be acceptable. So you might be willing to “leave it at that”, but its something that I can’t do.

They said we’d never approve gay marriages or recreational marijuana. I think we’ll be legalizing prostitution before long. Just legalize it, pimping, soliciting on the street, those things can still be crimes, but the act itself should be legal. Regulate it as a business if you must, but the war on prostitution is just like the war on drugs, we’re losing, and the war is causing more harm than surrendering.

Questions (serious questions):

  1. Under your ideal systems, would “Johns” remain anonymous, or would they have to provide ID?

  2. Would licensed hookers be allowed to provide ANY service the Johns ask for, or only ones deemed safe by legal authorities? That is, could the John request “Greek without a condom?”

  3. Where/how would ladies be allowed to advertise? TV okay?

  4. Would prices also be regulated, as taxi fares are?

  5. Would clients have to prove they were 21 or over?
    After all, if anonymity is NOT assured, wouldn’t potential clients seek out girls somewhere else?

And if safety regulations prevent clients from getting the services they want from licensed ladies, wouldn’t they seek out unlicensed girls with fewer limits?

If horny teenagers can’t hire girls, won’t they also seek out girls without age restrictions?

Nashville had legal at least six brothels up until the mid-90s (started by Gen. Hooker during the Civil War). Nobody took IDs (unless maybe if you looked underage) or names of customers; you just went in and told the girls what you wanted (you could be turned down). Condoms were required. Or so I’ve been told by a friend. :wink:

If the political climate changed enough to actually allow such regulations, most of those issues would be decided by the free market.

There very well might be some restrictions on advertising, but alcohol and tobacco also have restrictions.

Age of clients is something I haven’t thought of before. I really can’t even guess what might happen with that.

Really? I’ve worked some bad jobs - janitor, door greeter at WalMart - but never sucked dicks for money. I’d really like to know those horrible jobs your mother did that were the same as sucking dicks for money.

You really would? Would you tell your friends about how great a blowjob your mother gave so they would give her more business?

“Icky??” Is that what you think sucking dicks or spreading her legs or bending over in a hotel room for money is? Just “icky”?

No I would feel pretty sick if I found out someone I loved was doing that and I would do whatever I could to get them away from that life. I’d open my home. Give them money. Get them to a drug treatment center if that was the problem, etc… And if they chose to keep doing it… hmm… I would tell them my door was always open but until they wanted to change their way I wouldnt accept them to any kind of family gathering.

I think in the US its better described as long as its out of sight, law enforcement usually doesnt act. So street walkers? Yeah, in the US that wont be legal. Someone running an “escort” business off the internet where nobody knows? The cops usually dont get involved.

…I never even said she worked in a bad job. I said she worked hard and that I wish she would retire.

What is this about mums sucking dicks? I think you are projecting a bit too much dude. I think you should leave your mum out of the conversation.

Why would I tell my friends that? I don’t even discuss my own sex life in polite company, why would I talk about my mums?

Its just sex dude. People suck dicks and spread their legs and bend over in hotel rooms every minute of every hour of every day. What you’ve described is literally how sex works. Why does the addition of money turn having sex into this great big revolting thing for you?

And thats just very very sad. I feel sorry for any family member who wouldn’t be able to open up too you and risk being treated as a pariah at family gatherings.

Can you be specific about what exactly it is you find so revolting?

Well no, that isn’t a better way to describe it. A more accurate way to describe it would be to read your posts in this thread. The mere thought of a family member working as a sex worker would mean that you wouldn’t accept them to any kind of family gathering. You view sex work in a very puritanical way, as I said. As long as attitudes like yours exist: there isn’t a hope in heck of prostitution being legalised.

Maybe I missed it, but shouldn’t we be yammering on and on and on about Nevada?

The government tells consenting adults they can’t do all kinds of things.

[quote=“Banquet_Bear, post:37, topic:712753”]

Well no, that isn’t a better way to describe it. A more accurate way to describe it would be to read your posts in this thread. The mere thought of a family member working as a sex worker would mean that you wouldn’t accept them to any kind of family gathering.
I never said I wouldnt go out of my way to help a family member in so much need they must resort to selling their body for money. As I said I’d open my home, I would give them money, I would help them of any addictions, etc…

BUT, it they willingly chose to do that for money and refused to get help or change, and especially if they are flaunting it, if they showed up at my house for my kids birthday I would hand them my phone number and tell them to go somewhere else.

I mean its no different than other behaviors like persons quick to anger, violence, or had racist attitudes.

I’m no prude. But their is a time and place for everything and I’d totally understand if a person was in such a desperate spot they would have to sell their bodies for money. But I would want to help the situation and get them out of it. Not just give in.