# Legally Downloading MP3s
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 14, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419 "2003-03-14T19:56:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@abel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/1 "2003-03-14T19:56:04Z")
Okay, this is probably a question for someone with a LOT more legal experience than myself. I have a CD, bought a few years ago, that has been borrowed, scratched, and is basically unreadable in any CD player.
1. Would I be within my rights to go online and download the songs that were on that CD, as a means of backing them up?
2. Haven’t I already bought the right to listen to these songs? If I can, great! If I can’t, why the heck not?
3. I believe I have the right to keep a backup copy. Does it have to come off my original?
4. If I do download these songs, do I have to keep the original as proof that I did at one time buy the CD?
Lots of questions, so have at it. I did a quick search of the forums before posting, but it’s possible that someone has posted on this before, so please forgive me if I’m unintentionally redundant.
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### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/2 "2003-03-14T20:07:56Z")
I’m pretty sure downloading the songs would still be illegal simply because the person you are downloading from almost certainly does not have permission to distribute, nor means to authenticate that you had previously purchased the music.
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### Author:  [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/3 "2003-03-14T20:21:07Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by abel \*
> **2. Haven’t I already bought the right to listen to these songs? If I can, great! If I can’t, why the heck not?**
Copyright law is very mysterious to me. I’ve long had questions such as the above, and here are a few more:
If I buy a book and it gets ruined, can I photocopy my friend’s copy of it?
If I buy a cassette tape, and my tape player breaks down, why should I have to buy a CD at full price? If I already have the right to listen to the tape, shouldn’t it suffice to pay merely an Upgrade fee for the version on the new medium?
All kidding aside, what makes software different than the above cases? Why does software go out of its way to point out that the consumer is buying only a license to use it, and is not actually purchasing the software? When someone buys a book, did they ever think that this gives them ownership of the story?
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### Author:  [@abel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/4 "2003-03-14T20:35:33Z")
Well, that’s partly my point/question… if I have a license to listen to this music, and my only copy of it is ruined or destroyed, do I not still legally have the right to reacquire it in accordance with the license? I can understand **Revtim’s** argument about authentication, so how about this…
**Hypothetical**
IF I take my copy over to a friend’s house, who also a copy of the same CD, and I show them my scratched-up copy, would they be on good legal ground if they let me borrow their copy for the purposes of reinstating my copy to good working order (in other words, burning a new copy). They have authenticated that I do, in fact, own the CD, and therefore, a license to listen to that music.
P.S. Even if this is legal, I doubt I’ll find a friend who has a copy of my old Third Eye Blind album.
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### Author:  [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/5 "2003-03-14T20:40:30Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by abel \*
> **2. Haven’t I already bought the right to listen to these songs? If I can, great! If I can’t, why the heck not?**
Copyright law is very mysterious to me. I’ve long had questions such as the above, and here are a few more:
If I buy a book and it gets ruined, can I photocopy my friend’s copy of it?
If I buy a cassette tape, and my tape player breaks down, why should I have to buy a CD at full price? If I already have the right to listen to the tape, shouldn’t it suffice to pay merely an Upgrade fee for the version on the new medium?
All kidding aside, what makes software different than the above cases? Why does software go out of its way to point out that the consumer is buying only a license to use it, and is not actually purchasing the software? When someone buys a book, did they ever think that this gives them ownership of the story?
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### Author:  [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/6 "2003-03-14T21:26:58Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by abel \*
> \*\*Okay, this is probably a question for someone with a LOT more legal experience than myself. I have a CD, bought a few years ago, that has been borrowed, scratched, and is basically unreadable in any CD player.
>
> 1. Would I be within my rights to go online and download the songs that were on that CD, as a means of backing them up?
No. You cannot make copies unless you have permission from the copyright holder. Downloading the songs is making copies.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Haven’t I already bought the right to listen to these songs? If I can, great! If I can’t, why the heck not?
Nope. You’ve just bought the _CD_. You certainly can listen to the songs on it, but you have **not** bought any right to make copies of them – which is what copyright means. There is no “right to listen to the songs” in any legal sense.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. I believe I have the right to keep a backup copy. Does it have to come off my original?
This is a myth. The law only allows libraries – not individual – to make archive backups.
People get confused because software often grants you right to make backups. However, they grant you that right because _you don’t already have it._ (Obviously, if you already had the right, they wouldn’t have to grant it to you.)
> [@](#):
>
> 1. If I do download these songs, do I have to keep the original as proof that I did at one time buy the CD?
Irrelevant. Whether you have the original or not, you do not have the right to make any copies by downloading.
Additional answers:
> [@](#):
>
> If I buy a book and it gets ruined, can I photocopy my friend’s copy of it?
Not legally. Kinkos got busted a few years ago for allowing this.
> [@](#):
>
> All kidding aside, what makes software different than the above cases? Why does software go out of its way to point out that the consumer is buying only a license to use it, and is not actually purchasing the software?
Software isn’t any different as far as copyright is concerned. You do not have any automatic right to make copies of it.
What software does do is allow you to make copies under certain circumstances; for instance, when you install it from a CD onto your hard drive. That is what the license is for: to allow the user to install the software without being in violation of the copyright.
> [@](#):
>
> When someone buys a book, did they ever think that this gives them ownership of the story?
You’re right: if you buy a book, you don’t own the story. Similarly, if you buy a CD, you still don’t own the songs.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/7 "2003-03-14T21:31:18Z")
If you buy a book… let’s call it the Warhammer 40k rulebook, and for some reason, about eight significant pages are blank, can you xerox someone else’s pages? Assuming that the store you bought it from was the only one that had it, and had only one copy they got by accident, in about 50 miles.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/8 "2003-03-14T21:34:15Z")
But, Chuck, that seems a bit off from my personal experiences with copyright. Are you sure?
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### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/9 "2003-03-14T22:08:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \*
> \*\*If you buy a book… let’s call it the Warhammer 40k rulebook, and for some reason, about eight significant pages are blank, can you xerox someone else’s pages? Assuming that the store you bought it from was the only one that had it, and had only one copy they got by accident, in about 50 miles. \*\*
Assuming the book isn’t only 8 or 9 pages, I _think_ that amount of copying is legal under “fair use”.
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### Author:  [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/10 "2003-03-14T22:30:59Z")
You should check [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167347), that coveres almost the same question.
As far as I can tell, this issue is still contested. In my opinion, if this is regulated, it is because it might be covered by the first-sale doctrine, to be found in 17 USC, sec. 109. Following the definition of sec. 101 the first sale doctrine only applies to ‘copies’, to wit “material objects (…) in which a work is fixed (…)”. However, in practice most people agree some extension applies for legally obtained downloads. You can read about this in the two government agency reports on this subject: NTIA and Copyright Office. Warning: both are from 2001, and I’m not sure whether any new developments have occured.
The OP’s questions unfortunately explore the still uncertain boundaries of the first-sale doctrine, hence no definite answers can be given.
(I copied the majority of this post from another post of mine in another [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3133857#post3133857).)
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### Author:  [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/11 "2003-03-14T22:45:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Nope. You’ve just bought the CD. You certainly can listen to the songs on it, but you have \*\*not bought any right to make copies of them – which is what copyright means. There is no “right to listen to the songs” in any legal sense.
But Chuck, why do I see Phillips-Magnovox commericials showing a guy copying his own CDs to make a party mix? Surely they are not encouraging legal activity.
Please clarify. My impression of your post is that we may _never_ copy music under any circumstances.
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### Author:  [@abel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/12 "2003-03-15T00:30:58Z")
Okay, based on **TTT’s** linked thread, it seems that the majority believes that you buy the right to listen to the songs when you buy music.
Examples
**Joe\_Cool** “I believe it is entirely moral to make a copy, since you already paid for it, thereby compensating both the creator and the publisher.”
**ElJeffe** “I also don’t see an ethical problem with downloading music off the internet, provided you are downloading a copy of the same music you already own. Is there really an ethical difference between taking a CD you own, ripping a track off it, and converting it to mp3 format, versus just downloading the same song to begin with? I don’t see how. Nobody’s gaining or losing any money out of the deal, except the person doing the downloading, who may be gaining some time. Is it illegal? Probably, but given the mentality of the record industry, that’s not saying much. Is it moral? Seems it to me.”
Isn’t that what musicians want? To be compensated for their work? I’ve already done that, so why should I lose my right to listen to the music I’ve already bought, just because a CD is easily scratched?
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### Author:  [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/13 "2003-03-15T03:08:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \*
> **This is a myth. The law only allows libraries – not individual – to make archive backups.**
Do you have a cite for this?
It seems to me that the right to make backups is related to the right to time-shift and format-shift. Are you saying it’s illegal to copy tracks to your portable MP3 player?
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### Author:  [@abel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-downloading-mp3s/161419/14 "2003-03-15T21:28:09Z")
Well, I don’t want this to get moved to Great Debates… there IS a factual answer here. Is anyone or does anyone know a lawyer who could clear up our confusion? I was able to use error correction to get some of the tracks to play, but not all of them.
Archiving has to be allowed by the license. How else would Microsoft have gotten away with including a CD ripper in the Windows Media Player software. And how would mp3 players get any customers at all? Do you expect people to buy a CD, decide they like a song, and then go back on the musician’s website and pay to download an mp3 version of the song? What if they like the wma format? Would they have to pay again to get that download? I don’t buy that for a second, no pun intended. :-p
All I want to know is if it matters which CD I use to make a backup copy of music I have already purchased/licensed.