# Legally, exactly when does a transgendered person change sex? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 27, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287 "2003-07-27T18:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/1 "2003-07-27T18:33:55Z")
I was talking with my mom earlier, and she mentioned an incident from when she worked at a title company. A person who was going to have the operation to go from male to female, but had it performed yet, was closing on a house. The person in charge of the closing didn’t know what to put as gender on the forms, and my Mom doesn’t remember how it got resolved. Legally, at what point would the person be female? Is the operation the point when legally this person would be considered female? If so, is there a particular moment in the surgery where the line is crossed? Is it once the patient is wheeled into post-op, maybe? Or has it never been defined to this precise level? Or maybe it doesn’t matter at all legally, and one could put whatever gender they want to put at any time? ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/2 "2003-07-27T19:12:09Z")
I don’t know about elsewhere, but sadly here in the UK a transgender/transsexual person is _never_ legally any gender other than that originally recorded on their birth certificate, leading to all sorts of anomalies and heartache. Time for a change, methinks. Julie ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/3 "2003-07-27T19:18:17Z")
According to [this place](http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/legalindex.html), you have to get your birth certificate, your driver’s license and your social security number changed first. All these must be done after the operation. The operation must be complete and you must have all female parts. The transsexuals I know have encountered all kinds of hassles with trying to get their sex changed from refusal of service to jobs kicking them out when they realize what’s going on. For the transsexual, it is best to have all the papers and legal documents calling them by their prefered sex or else much trouble can be found. That is for the US at least. In other countries it various. There is a famous transgendered singer in Korea who has had all the surgery and everything, yet the government still will not recognize her as a woman. I have no idea why not. You can see from [this picture](http://www.lilliecharlotte.com/ava/kakkoii.jpg) that anyone passing her on the street would mistake her for a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/4 "2003-07-27T20:41:01Z")
> [@](#): > > According to this place, you have to get your birth certificate, your driver’s license and your social security number changed first. You don’t need to change your Socia Security _number_; just the name associated with that number. Just like any other legal name change. > [@](#): > > I don’t know about elsewhere, but sadly here in the UK a transgender/transsexual person is never legally any gender other than that originally recorded on their birth certificate, leading to all sorts of anomalies and heartache. > > Time for a change, methinks. Happily this change is [coming soon](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,992486,00.html). In the United States, changing the sex listed on one’s birth certificate is a state-by-state issue. There are I believe four states which specifically protect the rights of people regardless of gender identity or expression but I’m not expert enough to know whether changing the sex on a birth certificate is included within those rights. There was a sad case from Kansas a few years ago in which the state supreme court declared the marriage of a biological male and a transgender woman invalid because the wife was chromosomally male. The Texas supreme court has ruled the same way in a case in that state. These have led to an odd blip in the law by which two people of the same sex can marry in those states as long as one of them is transgender. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/5 "2003-07-27T21:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*You don’t need to change your Socia Security _number_; just the name associated with that number. Just like any other legal name change. > \*\* They suggest that you change the number too though. > [@](#): > > Even if first & last names are changed, using the same ss# can lead to discrepancies that can come back to haunt you years later. -from the site i mentioned above You can get some of the documents before the surgery if you are lucky. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/6 "2003-07-27T22:08:03Z")
It varies. In some states the answer appears to be “never”. Others generally allow you to change your sex after surgery. Many will let you change your driver’s license before surgery. Illinois will allow you to change your legal sex at any time, as part of a name change, although the legal effect of such changes is not clear. Social Security currently requires an affadavit from the surgeon and a personal interview. The Selective Service does not respect sex changes; thus, if you were born male you have to register for the draft even if you have since changed sex, and female to males will have any attempt to register purged. (A FTM can get a document from the Selective Service that proves that they are not required to register, in the event that their failure to register creates any legal difficulties.) Even if your legal sex is changed by order of the court (and in every state that allows changes, a court order is required), whether or not that change will be respected by other states is up in the air. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/7 "2003-07-28T00:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*A person who was going to have the operation to go from male to female, but had it performed yet, was closing on a house. The person in charge of the closing didn’t know what to put as gender on the forms, and my Mom doesn’t remember how it got resolved. > \*\* This begs the question but the simple solution to that particular problem is to describe the person as “a single person never having married.” ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/8 "2003-07-28T01:20:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ava \* > \*\*That is for the US at least. In other countries it various. There is a famous transgendered singer in Korea who has had all the surgery and everything, yet the government still will not recognize her as a woman. I have no idea why not. You can see from [this picture](http://www.lilliecharlotte.com/ava/kakkoii.jpg) that anyone passing her on the street would mistake her for a girl. \*\* Japan has just this month passed a new law allowing transsexuals to change the gender listed on their family registers. Since the family register is the basis for just about every other form of ID in Japan, this is essentially full recognition. [http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882795/gender-0-2.html](http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882795/gender-0-2.html) There are conditions, though. The applicant must not only be over 20 (the legal age of adulthood) and have undergone a sex-change operation, but also must be single and have no children. > [@](#): > > The child factor was added because the ruling parties led by the Liberal Democratic Party insisted that those with children should not be allowed to change their sex to prevent their offspring from getting a “shock.” This provision will probably be challenged by gender identity disorder advocates. Incidentally, Aya Kamikawa, a transsexual who ran for office in the ward where I live, won a seat in the Municipal Assembly in April. [http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882796/gender-0-12.html](http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882796/gender-0-12.html) [http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882796/gender-0-11.html](http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882796/gender-0-11.html) [http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882796/gender-0-7.html](http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/882796/gender-0-7.html) ---
**Author:** ![Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/9 "2003-07-28T04:47:21Z")
My soon to be ex brother in law claims he is legally a woman. He has changed his name legally to Elizabeth… personally I see that claim as another way to wriggle out of any obligations he /she may have to my sis and the kids… thats not to say his transexualness (?) is a dodge… just the stuff he says about it… ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/10 "2003-07-28T06:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ava \* > \*\*You can see from [this picture](http://www.lilliecharlotte.com/ava/kakkoii.jpg) that anyone passing her on the street would mistake her for a girl. \*\* If I may pass into caveman mode for a minute… Holy flippin’ Christ! Korean doctors are _good_! ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-exactly-when-does-a-transgendered-person-change-sex/191287/11 "2003-07-28T07:11:33Z")
In France to legally change sex for ftms you have to be on hormonal treatment, have had top surgery and an hysto; for mtfs you have to had a vaginoplasty and to be on hormones. Sterility and looking like the other sex seem to be the defining factor. But it’s up to a local panel of judges to rule if you are a man or a woman, so as far as I know you have to take a lawyer, provide testimonies from family, non-trans friends that you behave and live according to your target sex, proofs that you are using your new name in real life, submit to medical exam(s) to prove that you are different “down there” and that your body has globally changed, maybe a shrink to be sure you are really transsexual etc…It takes between one and three years to have then an answer. It is said you usually have a 50% sucess rate. If you lose you usually only get a name change. If you win you get name change + change of the sex marker on all id papers and on SS number + mention of the change on your birth certificate. This is what I remember of how it is. It scares me.