# Legally Going Back in Time? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 6, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145 "2018-03-06T20:07:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/21 "2018-03-07T02:03:30Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Can they make a legal argument that someone who has been alive for less than 18 years is in fact under the age of 18? They can make any legal argument they like, but you become 18 years old at midnight of the date it says you are born on your birth certificate. > [@](#): > > Honestly, that seems like a more sane way to determine age to me. Your age is the amount of time since you’ve been born. It doesn’t change when you cross a time zone. That would make it too difficult to determine someone’s exact age, such as being served alcohol. Simple is saner. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/22 "2018-03-07T02:24:35Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > That would make it too difficult to determine someone’s exact age, such as being served alcohol. Simple is saner. Or for weightier cases, such as the exact moment one can legally have sex with another. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/23 "2018-03-07T03:58:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Since I doubt there is an established body of law on this, let’s move it to IMHO. The only thing more vague and undefined than Space Law is Time Law. However, in this universe, we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics. Unless you have this daemon who stops all of the slow moving particles and lets the fast ones pass… Stranger ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/24 "2018-03-07T06:16:49Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > They can make any legal argument they like, but you become 18 years old at midnight of the date it says you are born on your birth certificate. Do you? Is there any actual law to back up that assertion? In the absence of an actual law that says so, wouldn’t the common definition of age be the one used. The one that is the duration since you were born? > [@](#): > > That would make it too difficult to determine someone’s exact age, such as being served alcohol. Simple is saner. But of course you almost never need to determine someone’s exact age to serve them alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/25 "2018-03-07T07:02:29Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Do you? Is there any actual law to back up that assertion? Can you find a law to the contrary? Every law in my state based on age that I’m aware of does not take into account what time of day one is born. For instance, to apply for a student learner’s permit, you must be at least 16 years old. A lot of kids do this on their 16th birthday, even if they were born at 11:59 PM. You have to know this based on having similar life experiences to mine. > [@](#): > > In the absence of an actual law that says so, wouldn’t the common definition of age be the one used. The one that is the duration since you were born? The one that is commonly used is that you are of a new age at midnight on your birthday. I don’t know of a place where it’s common to take into account what hour or minute one was born at. 😕 > [@](#): > > But of course you almost never need to determine someone’s exact age to serve them alcohol. Why is that relevant? It’s not uncommon for young people to go to bars and order a drink at midnight on the day they turn 21 (allowed in most states). It’s never based on what time of day one was born at. ---
**Author:** ![kferr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/26 "2018-03-07T12:43:17Z")
Back in the early 80’s in Missouri a friend was going to turn 21 on a Sunday. The bar advertised “open until 02:00 on Saturdays” so we went in just after midnight. The doorman turned her away with the explanation that since the bar wasn’t allowed to open on Sunday 02:00 was still counted as Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/27 "2018-03-07T16:49:29Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Can you find a law to the contrary? Every law in my state based on age that I’m aware of does not take into account what time of day one is born. For instance, to apply for a student learner’s permit, you must be at least 16 years old. A lot of kids do this on their 16th birthday, even if they were born at 11:59 PM. You have to know this based on having similar life experiences to mine. My point is that there might not be any law that clearly defines what it means to be a certain age, and then you have to use the common English definition. And there are reasonably two different definitions for age. One that is discrete, based on time boundaries like days and time zones, and one that is continuous. What you’re arguing is that everyone generally uses the discrete one, because it’s easy and we have IDs that specify day, but not hour, minute, or location. Which I don’t disagree with. That is the system that basically everyone uses. But is that the only definition a court would accept? I’m not 100% sure that it is. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/28 "2018-03-07T17:16:59Z")
How about DST? I was born at something like 11:45pm in a month when DST was in common use, but not officially recognized. In common use, it 12:45am on the 10th, but it was recorded as 11:45pm on the 9th. In subsequent years, DST has become officially recognized, but my birthday is still the 9th. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/29 "2018-03-07T17:42:59Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > My point is that there might not be any law that clearly defines what it means to be a certain age, and then you have to use the common English definition. > [@](#): > > In State v. Brown, 443 S.W.2d 805 (Mo. 1969) (en banc), a defendant contended that he did not become an adult not only until the 18th anniversary of his birthdate, but moreover until the precise hour and moment of his birth had been reached. Rejecting that contention, the court stated: > > [A]s a general rule, the law does not consider fractions of a day… While exceptions to this rule have been made by various courts, most relate to situations where the two acts occur on the same day, such as priorities of liens or deeds filed on the same day. As to computation of a person’s age, the same contention as defendant here makes was made in the early case (1633) of Herbert _1073 v. Turball, [supra] and the court stated: "_ \* \* and whatever hour he was born is not material, there being no fraction of days." No cases to the contrary have been found. A second rule of the common law contrary to defendant’s theory is the rule that a person reaches his next year in age at the first moment of the day prior to the anniversary of his birth… It may be noted that this rule does not follow the general rule of common law for the computation of time, which was to exclude the first day and include the last. This exception has been followed for such a long period of time that it has achieved a status of its own and should be followed in the absence of a statutory enactment to the contrary. [Id., at 806-07 (citations omitted).] > **[United States v. Tucker](https://law.justia.com/cases/district-of-columbia/court-of-appeals/1979/79-30-3.html)** > > United States v. Tucker - 407 A.2d 1067 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/30 "2018-03-07T17:47:18Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Or for weightier cases, such as the exact moment one can legally have sex with another. So if two people the exact same age are engaging in standing missionary style exactly on on the border… ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/31 "2018-03-07T17:56:50Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > [United States v. Tucker :: 1979 :: District of Columbia Court of Appeals Decisions :: District of Columbia Case Law :: District of Columbia Law :: US Law :: Justia](https://law.justia.com/cases/district-of-columbia/court-of-appeals/1979/79-30-3.html) Thanks! Pondering resolved. Do I read the second part of that cite as saying that you’re actually X years old at 12:01 am the day _before_ your birthday? ---
**Author:** ![cormac262](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@cormac262](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cormac262)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/32 "2018-03-07T18:07:13Z")
Kind of a variation on the OP. Something I pondered when I started visiting the south pacific. So when you fly west across the date line, you lose a day. Like you fly 11 hours, but it is actually a whole day “past” when you left. This all works out because when you fly home (east), you can sometimes land “before” your departure day/time. So you gain back that lost day. But what if, after flying west across the dateline, you continued west ? When you finally get back to your origin point, you will have “skipped over” a day. You would never recover that day. So it is as though you “aged less” by the lost day. By the calendar, you are one day older, but you actually haven’t lived that many elapsed days. So if, say, you were rich enough and didn’t have the patience to wait, say 5 days to turn 21, but wanted to attend this big party, you could start doing laps, westward, around the world to “skip” over days. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/33 "2018-03-07T18:24:04Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > So if, say, you were rich enough and didn’t have the patience to wait, say 5 days to turn 21, but wanted to attend this big party, you could start doing laps, westward, around the world to “skip” over days. This doesn’t work. As you fly west, each time zone you cross makes it an hour “earlier”. Then there’s a big discontinuity at the international date line, that jumps to 24 hours “later”. If you go less than one revolution, then you can either relive some calendar hours or skip them, depending on starting and ending points. But the net change if you keep going averages to zero. Think about it this way: If you fly all the way around the world and land back where you took off from, the time you land is however long it took you to fly around after the time you took off. No day-skipping. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/34 "2018-03-07T18:32:36Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > So if, say, you were rich enough and didn’t have the patience to wait, say 5 days to turn 21, but wanted to attend this big party, you could start doing laps, westward, around the world to “skip” over days. Suppose you had an infinitely fast jet. You are in the Cook Islands where the current time is 9:00 AM on Tuesday. You fly your jet instantaneously to New Zealand where it is now 8:00 AM on Wednesday. Woo hoo, you just gained a day. You want to keep this going on so you continue flying west back to the Cook Islands where it is 9:00 AM on Tuesday again (because you passed through 23 time zones along the way) and the whole process restarts. How exactly are you going to skip any days? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/35 "2018-03-08T13:15:48Z")
Related question: what would be the legal status of a baby born on, say, March 8 in Samoa, who then immediately travels to American Samoa, where it was still March 7? Would they not exist? (I suppose it’s a moot point, because most births aren’t registered until several days after the event, anyway - but if, say, some medical procedure had to be recorded on that day, it could create some interesting problems!) ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/36 "2018-03-08T18:18:29Z")
Another related question. Say you live in New Mexico (mountain time) just across the border from Texas (central time). You drive into Texas to meet your friends at a bar to celebrate your 21st birthday at midnight. At 12:00 everyone buys you shots at you quickly get hammered. At 12:20 you leave the bar to drive home. You arrive back in your New Mexico neighborhood at 11:40, get pulled over, and after a breathalizer test are cited with a DUI. Can they also cite you for underage drinking? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/37 "2018-03-08T18:38:26Z")
The good Dr. Asimov speculated many years ago about the effect of time and law. If you have 3-4 minutes, please consider this little tale: [A Loint of Paw - Asimov's Mysteries](https://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/82002/16/Azimov_-_Asimovs_Mysteries.html) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/38 "2018-03-08T18:41:20Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Can they also cite you for underage drinking? I’m sure it depends on the laws in that jurisdiction, but it doesn’t appear that they drank in a jurisdiction where they were underage. Any drinking was legal and took place in Texas. DUI is a crime regardless of your age, although there may be increased penalties for DUI depending on the driver’s age. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/39 "2018-03-08T18:48:16Z")
Breaking causality is universally frowned upon. **299,792,458 m/s Not just a good idea, its the law!** ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@MonkeyCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyCat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145/40 "2018-03-08T21:25:35Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I came up with this mental puzzle when I was still a child. Forgive me if it sounds silly to some (remember I was just a kid). Actually even as a kid, people often told me I was pretty smart (I digress). > > You are about to have a birthday, at midnight that night, naturally. And let’s just say for the sake of argument, you are about to turn 21(drinking age in the US). Midnight strikes in the Eastern time zone. But then you cross the border west, in the adjacent time zone where it is 11p. So now you are 20 again? > > Then you rent a car, ride a plane whatever, to the border of the west adjacent time zone. What is that? Mountain Time, I believe. And you again cross one second after midnight. So it is 11pm again. > > You do this two more times, until you are at the Aleutian Islands, right at the international date line, ironically. > > Two questions: Are you legally going back in time? And more importantly, are you breaking the law if you take a sip of beer, but only swallow it as you cross into the new time zone? Remember, you are 20 in the new time zone, but 21 where you start (I.e., drinking age in the USA). > > As I said, I came up with the problem when I was still quite young. But I don’t care what the rest of you might say, I still like it:). > > Thank you in advance for all your replies:) > > 🙂 🙂 🙂 I think other posters have figured it out, but I’ll still put my two cents in. I am pretty sure if you’re located in a time zone in which you had not yet turned 21, even though having legally turned 21 in your starting location, you would be committing a crime. However, I’m pretty sure you’d have to be intensely unlucky to be caught and tried. So, in conclusion, I hope when you turned 21, you drove “backwards in time” and illegally drank some alcohol. That would be a pleasing end to this thought bubble. If you didn’t, shame on you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legally-going-back-in-time/810145.md?page=3)