# lekatt's "Great Debate" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654 "2004-06-16T14:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/1 "2004-06-16T14:46:17Z")
Quite a few interesting threads have been sidetracked recently by **lekatt** ’s constant references to Near Death Experiences (which he calls _veridical, ie._ “truthful or coinciding with reality”). I have opened this thread in an attempt to minimise these diversions, even though they are apparently perfectly allowable in this forum since they fall under the heading “witnessing”. If he posts something having little or no relation to the subject at hand, might I suggest that you respond _here_, copying and pasting his quote and giving a link. (But be warned. If some of the finest minds here could not get him to genuinely _debate_ his position in [36 pages](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=156629&page=1&pp=50) and he has even spawned a verb “[to lekatt](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=169316)”, and he has been doing this on many different message boards for at least the last _decade_ of his 67 years, do you really think _you’ll_ get anywhere?) Now, I have no doubt that people _have_ powerful experiences, whether they are near death or not (and I understand **lekatt** [was not](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3161631&postcount=1452) - he merely _talked about_ death _during_ his experience). But the central point is not whether the experiences were profound or powerful - clearly they _are_ - it is whether or not they are _supernatural_. **lekatt** contends that NDE’s simply can **not** be hallucinations or powerful dreams caused by non-supernatural brain activity, even though one of [his own citations](http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/dailystar/24289.php) says this: > [@](#): > > This is the first study ever to find neurophysiologic differences in people who have had these experiences…An unexpectedly high number - 22 percent - of the near-death experiencers showed a rare brain-wave pattern known as “synchronized brain activity” in the left temporal lobe. That is a simultaneous firing of neurons - sometimes described as “an electrical storm” - in that part of the brain. It is the kind of abnormal pattern seen in people who suffer epileptic seizures in the temporal lobe…even on a one-night study, the rate was 22 times higher in the NDE group than would have been expected. And, further… > [@](#): > > In fact, it is well known that temporal lobe epileptics also experience spiritual near-death-experience-type episodes during seizures and are profoundly affected and changed by them in the same ways near-death experiences are. When the heart stops, when the brain shuts down, during the traumatic event, we do know there is a lot of discharge of brain activity…So I think most of this can be explained on a physiological basis. I certainly don’t want to say there isn’t an afterlife, but I don’t think these experiences are the evidence for it. They can be explained. I feel it is useful to remember the principle of Ockham’s Razor here: “_In explaining a thing, no more assumptions should be made than are necessary._” The only evidence **lekatt** presents which he believes _rules out_ neurological explanations is anecdotal, concerning small details about what a person did or did not know about at a given time. Admittedly, some of this anecdotal evidence has even been found in world-class, peer-reviewed scientific and medical journals such as the Lancet. However, _even then_ there are enormous disclaimers regarding whether someone could simply be _mistaken_ about precisely when they learned _eg._ the location of an object or the name or appearance of a person, or whether their brain could process overheard details while they were unconscious (rather like a clock’s alarm being incorporated into your dream). His other main claim is that psychics can communicate with the dead. He is fond of citing a [Channel 5 news report](http://www.newsnet5.com/station/2893543/detail.html) regarding studies by a Dr. Gary Schwartz of the University of Arizona. Needless to say, Schwartz has been [asked to follow a **double** -blind, cheat-proof protocol](http://www.randi.org/jr/03-30-2001.html) many times (for balance, see his [rebuttal](http://www.marius.net/dearjames2.htm).) Not that this is much use to **lekatt** , mind you, since he appears to think it _impossible_ for vague guesses to be correct _without_ psychic powers. If I “see” an older woman in a chair with a distinctive scratch on it, facing a window, and near some flowers, a telephone, and a photograph of a man in some kind of uniform and _you_ recognise that description, **I am psychic**. (Of course, I could never simply tell you the woman’s surname or address - those spirits certainly mumble!) Ouija boards, ghosts, past-life memories: surely only an utter credophile would believe almost literally _anything?_ (Curiously, he seems to think that Ectoplasm is fake and Miss Cleo was a fraud - _they were_ fraudulent, of course, but I’m stumped why he only applies such admirable critical thinking to these two specific cases.) We did at one point pester him to say what evidence _would_ convince him that some phenomenon he _thought_ was genuine was actually a fraud, but he simply _did not even **entertain** _ such a hypothetical. His _personal experience_ of someone or something’s veracity is all that matters (and they **must** have an origin outside the brain - for some reason he thinks that just because science cannot yet easily distinguish between neural _arrangements_ then some _spiritual_ entity must be responsible for the fact that no two people’s memories are identical). So, there you are. If you wish to “debate” him, please do it here in order that he does not take over otherwise interesting threads. However, be aware that the vast majority of his posts are mystical non-sequiturs actually more suited to the IMHO forum, and that you will not be presenting anything which he hasn’t already _ignored_ countless times before. Some questions for **lekatt** :[ul][li]Are the overwhelmingly powerful personal experiences of temporal-lobe epileptics _also_ supernatural in origin? How do you **explain** the correlation?[/li][li]Do you **agree** with the principle of Ockham’s razor?[/li][li]Is it **possible** to misremember the time sequence of tiny details while working in or being cared for in a hospital?[/li][li]Are you **impossible** to fool?[/li][li]Have you been diagnosed with, or are taking medication for, any psychological condition or psychosis?[/ul]Let us make these questions central to this “debate”. I predict that its only real worth will be in acting as a showpiece for **lekatt** ’s dubious rhetorical approach - we will see if I’m psychic in this regard.[/li] One final procedure I will instigate in this thread in order to prevent it becoming an unsalvageable mess: if **lekatt** posts a claim which is not merely dubious or unsupported but **demonstrably factually incorrect** , I will use it as a header to my subsequent posts (with a link which proves beyond doubt that the claim is outright _wrong_) until he explicitly retracts it. Past examples of such claims were, say, “A medium correctly repeated to Houdini’s wife, Bess, the password she had agreed with him before his death”: [Bess said NO medium did](http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa103000a.htm). Or, perhaps, “All brain cells look the same”: [Different types of neurons](http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/anatomy/brain/Neuron.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/2 "2004-06-16T15:01:02Z")
This is certainly a noble initiative which I applaud, but I doubt it will have much effect. As you say, **lekatt** has proven completely impervious to reason and facts. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/3 "2004-06-16T15:04:15Z")
Maybe this thread will come very close to dying, and then come to life again after a bright light. Then That would be proof eh? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/4 "2004-06-16T15:07:50Z")
Actually **vanilla** , since we’ve merely _talked about_ death, this would count as a Near Death Experience _already_! ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/5 "2004-06-16T15:39:46Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Some questions for **lekatt** :[ul][li]Are the overwhelmingly powerful personal experiences of temporal-lobe epileptics _also_ supernatural in origin? How do you **explain** the correlation?[/li][li]Do you **agree** with the principle of Ockham’s razor?[/li][li]Is it **possible** to misremember the time sequence of tiny details while working in or being cared for in a hospital?[/li][li]Are you **impossible** to fool?[/li][li]Have you been diagnosed with, or are taking medication for, any psychological condition or psychosis?[/ul][/li] You missed a couple… [ul][li]Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the **Communist Party**?[/li][li]Are you menstrating? (_well, he **could** be a girl._)\*[/li][li]What is your favorite **color**?[/ul][/li]I feel that these questions will be answered about as coherently as the others. My question, why is this not in the Pit? love Lebmalion \*with apologies to Dr. Venkman. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/6 "2004-06-16T16:21:42Z")
Great idea. **Priceguy** is probably right, but maybe it’ll do _us_ some good. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/7 "2004-06-16T16:27:59Z")
With all due respect to the OP, this particular thread is the very definition of a poisoned well. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/8 "2004-06-17T09:52:03Z")
Very well, to avoid accusations of poisonous bullying, let’s keep the debate specifically non-Pitworthy. My new proposition for debate: **Studies of temporal lobe epilepsy show that Near Death (or other powerfully religious) Experiences can be strongly correlated with a certain type of brain activity, showing that spiritual explanations for these experiences are UNNECESSARY**. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/9 "2004-06-17T09:58:57Z")
My 2c–same thing I always say–you’re right: they’re “physical” experiences. That’s because we now know that the “spirit” or “soul” is a persistent pattern, not an object. Hence, no need for a different kind of substance divorced from matter. (And in my view, matter is itself a kind of mathematical ordering, or pattern.) As for this thread in general: if you’re so intent on debating with Lekatt, then you are, in effect, seeking to buy what he has to sell. You’re getting a kick out of it. This is my last post in this thread. May it sink right quick. ---
**Author:** ![Sisyphus\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sisyphus\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sisyphus_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/10 "2004-06-17T10:04:11Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Very well, to avoid accusations of poisonous bullying, let’s keep the debate specifically non-Pitworthy. Doesn’t that kinda obviate the necessity of your OP? Dear Og, if you are not a kindred spirit, just be non-kindred and move on. Don’t provide further avenues for discussion of a non-event. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/11 "2004-06-17T10:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > if you’re so intent on debating with Lekatt, then you are, in effect, seeking to buy what he has to sell. You’re getting a kick out of it. > [@](#): > > Dear Og, if you are not a kindred spirit, just be non-kindred and move on. Don’t provide further avenues for discussion of a non-event. Yes, I wish to _debate_ **lekatt** , rather than simply act as a sounding board to his _witnessing_. The OP was my attempt at engineering an actual _debtate_ rather than another witnessing session. I can only assure you that my reasons for doing so are to minimise what I consider to be outright hijacking of other threads which might have been a lot more interesting than they eventually became. I apologise to **lekatt** if I come across as a bully - I _am_ ‘buying what he is selling’ in that I wish to genuinely and rigorously _explore_ his position, rather than plough through the same old flawed assertions. **Leroy** , please forgive any aggression you perceive from my direction. I enjoin you to give me your thoughts on my OP. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/12 "2004-06-17T11:04:55Z")
**Sentient Meat** , are you withdrawing your list of questions to **lekatt** to allow us to focus on the debate or are his answers relevant? If the questions remain, here are some for you: Do you see any assumptions in your own comments? Have you experienced any of the powerful “electrical brain storms” described? Does your own physical brain allow you to experience what you might describe as “reality”? If so, how do you determine that your perceptions of reality are accurate? Does _abnormal_ brain activity automatically mean that perceptions of reality experienced during those times are less valid? Isn’t it possible that the experiences that **lekatt** has chosen to describe as _supernatural_ might be described by someone else as _natural_ and yet still be considered “spiritual”? If you consider this a hijack of your original intent, please excuse me. That was not my intention. I’m just a little unclear on what you expect. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/13 "2004-06-17T11:36:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Sentient Meat, are you withdrawing your list of questions to lekatt to allow us to focus on the debate or are his answers relevant? Well, let’s make it both. The debate anyone can have _me_ is that there is a correlation between a specific kind of brain activity and a specific kind of experience. The debate **lekatt** can have with me or anyone else can be widened to those questions. If the questions remain, here are some for you: > [@](#): > > Do you see any assumptions in your own comments? Well, I am assuming that we agree on the principle of Ockham’s Razor and that epistemologies such as logic and scientific falsifiability are relevant here. > [@](#): > > Have you experienced any of the powerful “electrical brain storms” described? I have had a powerful religious experience. [url=]My testimony. Not having been wired up to a PET scanner at the time, I cannot say whether one of those ‘electricl storms’ occurred. However, since my experience mirrors those that _did_, I feel it a reasonable inductive step to contend that my experience could very likely _also_ be correlated with temporal lobe activity. > [@](#): > > Does your own physical brain allow you to experience what you might describe as “reality”? The words “you”, “experience” and “describe” _imply_ that a “reality perceiving entity” is being addressed in your post. So that’s an almost tautological ‘yes’. > [@](#): > > If so, how do you determine that your perceptions of reality are accurate? My _perceptions_ cannot _not_ be my perceptions. Accurate compared to what? The universe? My perception is that the universe (or whatever) is _so_. I perceive that logic, maths and science are _useful_ in that they make astonishingly accurate predictions. I find no entity which cannot be _explained_ satisfactorily without recourse to the supernatural. (However, of course, I cannot determine whether or not I am victim of Descartes Deceiver, _ie._ “in the Matrix”). > [@](#): > > Does abnormal brain activity automatically mean that perceptions of reality experienced during those times are less valid? ‘Valid’ is an overused and under-_useful_ word. One’s perception is _so_. Whether I am _imagining_ things is the question. > [@](#): > > Isn’t it possible that the experiences that lekatt has chosen to describe as supernatural might be described by someone else as natural and yet still be considered “spiritual”? Certainly. The debate concerns whether there is any reason for an appeal to the supernatural to be _necessary_. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/14 "2004-06-17T11:39:43Z")
Sorry, [My testimony](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=2826106). ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/15 "2004-06-17T12:45:56Z")
Lekatt has informed me that, were it not for his posts, there would be no serious debates of the Big Questions here. I’m rather appalled to find out that he’s 67, and not a bright-but-arrogant teenager. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/16 "2004-06-17T15:07:46Z")
The question is whether the brain produces the mind, psyche, spirit, soul, or is the psyche independent of the brain. Brain wave machines measure electrical activity within the brain, but do not show the source of that activity. It could be coming from the brain having been produced there, or it could be coming from an outside source to the brain where it is measured. If we connect an oscilloscope to a television it can measure for us the electrical activity in the television, show us the patterns of waves existing there. The scope doesn’t tell us where these waves come from or what causes them. It merely shows the waves. Since the TV is hardwared, and well documented, a repair man can usually tell from his experience where the problem lies, if there is one. Now brain research has been going on for over 100 years, and no such documentation exists, no hardwiring has been proved. * * * [http://www.aleroy.com/info02.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/info02.htm) ## “This is a project born of frustration, basically. For many years, all of us who study brain structure and function have struggled with the fact that no two brains are the same — not in shape or size and certainly not in function,” said Dr. John Mazziotta of the International Consortium for Brain Mapping, based at the University of California, Los Angeles. “But how different they were and how to compare them was not known.” If brains were hardwired, and if they were merely biological, then why have they presented such a problem to researchers, the other organs of the body have been documented and understood using the same methods that have failed on the brain. Now the brain is an interface between the body and spirit, since spirits (us) have different personalities the brain interfaces reflect these differences. The spirit guided brain also has the ability to mend itself, change locations of functions when necessary, and build new interfaces when the old ones are damaged. Remember the brain does not have a brain. What other indications do we have that the brain and spirit are separate entities? The best evidence we have are veridical NDEs, these are near death experiences that show consciousness lives on after the brain has ceased to function. They are “veridical” because the information the experiencer returned to life with was verified as information not available to them before his brain ceased to function. Now these NDEs have/are undergoing rigorous scientific study at this moment. The University of Virgina, The University of Arizona, Duke University, and Universities in England, Holland and other countries are studing NDES. ## A couple of these studies have been completed: [http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991693](http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991693) “This was the surprising thing,” van Lommel says. “It’s always said that NDEs are just a phenomenon relating to the dying brain and the lack of oxygen to the brain cells. But that’s not true. If there was a physiological cause, all the patients should have had an NDE.” ## “If researchers could prove that clinically dead patients, with no electrical activity in their cortex, can be aware of events around them and form memories, this would suggest that the brain does not generate consciousness, French and Van Lommel think.” [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/986177.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/986177.stm) "Scientists investigating ‘near-death’ experiences say they have found evidence to suggest that consciousness can continue to exist after the brain has ceased to function. " "He said: “When we examine brain cells we see that brain cells are like any other cells, they can produce proteins and chemicals, but they are not really capable of producing the subjective phenomenon of thought that we have.” * * * Now I will show a couple of veridical NDEs. The first is Pam Reynolds surgery, I show this because it is the best documented experience in existence. [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html) The next veridical NDE is one I ran across in a news group. [http://www.aleroy.com/FAQz05.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/FAQz05.htm) Are these all?, no there are literally hundreds of veridical NDEs in existence. There are more on my site. Some are not as well verified as the two above, but the trend is clear. While the NDE is the best, they are not the only experiences that point to our spiritual nature. Out-of-Body, Pre-Birth, After Death Communications, Death Bed Visions, etc. do so as well. There have been numerous researchers that have started their research as skeptics and ended them as believers. Kenneth Ring, Raymond Moody, Elizabeth Keubler-Ross, Robert Monroe, to name a few. It is time now to talk about the overwhelmingly powerful personal experiences of temporal-lobe epileptics. [http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/dailystar/24289.php](http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/dailystar/24289.php) This is an interesting article and shows the frustation of trying to analyze the brain. The writer is a skeptic, but is careful to say his findings do not include any prior knowledge of the NDEers brain waves before their experience. I included it in my links because I found it interesting. I knew an epileptic when in high school and was surprised to hear my brain waves may be similar to his. We have shown that brain waves may not be from the brain and that, in part, would explain how my brain receiving the save waves as an epileptic would cause our bodies to react so differently. It would indicate our brains were “wired” differently. But it does remain a mystery. I would suggest to those who wish to learn more the following links. [http://www.aleroy.com/newsitems.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/newsitems.htm) [http://www.aleroy.com/board00.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/board00.htm) [http://www.aleroy.com/FAQs00.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/FAQs00.htm) [http://www.aleroy.com/FAQs00.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/FAQs00.htm) These links are on my site, there are many other sites with more experiences and more informations. Just go to Google and type in Near Death Experiences, and you will get about a million hits. In summary, we have shown strong evidence of man’s spiritual nature and life after death. Scientists can do what they will, but the near death experiences will not go away. I search for truth, I am not interested in scientific methods, laws, or opinions. I feel the same about religion. I am not a believer in God, I **know** God exists. I have experienced the spiritual many times. However, I respect the beliefs and feelings of others. If you can’t find anything that interests you in this post, pass it by. Love ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/17 "2004-06-17T15:21:28Z")
when you search for TRUTH, the scientific method is the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/18 "2004-06-17T15:26:51Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just go to Google and type in Near Death Experiences, and you will get about a million hits. I just googled for UFO and got 4.5 million hits. Still haven’t seen any little green men. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/19 "2004-06-17T16:18:40Z")
It _does not matter_ what you debate with **lekatt** , because to _him_ it is all the same. To him, there does not seem to be any topic other than Near Death Experiences. To **lekatt** , my Great Aunt Bertha’s palsyed, throbbing toe is all about NDE. I have a headache. I’m gonna go have some quiet time… ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/20 "2004-06-17T16:31:11Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The question is whether the brain produces the mind, psyche, spirit, soul, or is the psyche independent of the brain. No, that’s not a question. The “mind”, as a separate entity from the body, doesn’t exist. Its perceived actions are merely electrical activity in the brain. > [@](#): > > Brain wave machines measure electrical activity within the brain, but do not show the source of that activity. It could be coming from the brain having been produced there, or it could be coming from an outside source to the brain where it is measured. It could also be coming from a small wooden box buried under a temple on Mars. Any evidence that it is? No. > [@](#): > > If brains were hardwired, and if they were merely biological, then why have they presented such a problem to researchers Because they’re extremely complicated. > [@](#): > > “This was the surprising thing,” van Lommel says. “It’s always said that NDEs are just a phenomenon relating to the dying brain and the lack of oxygen to the brain cells. But that’s not true. If there was a physiological cause, all the patients should have had an NDE.” Extremely poor conclusion from van Lommel. He goes on to say that elderly patients are more likely to have an NDE. That’s physiological right there. Also, if not all patients have them, that doesn’t mean there’s no physiological cause, just that we haven’t identified it yet. > [@](#): > > “If researchers could prove that clinically dead patients, with no electrical activity in their cortex, can be aware of events around them and form memories, this would suggest that the brain does not generate consciousness, French and Van Lommel think.” Yes, _if_ researchers could do that, it _would_ suggest that. They can’t, so it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > "Scientists investigating ‘near-death’ experiences say they have found evidence to suggest that consciousness can continue to exist after the brain has ceased to function. " > > "He said: “When we examine brain cells we see that brain cells are like any other cells, they can produce proteins and chemicals, but they are not really capable of producing the subjective phenomenon of thought that we have.” Nice selective quoting. The rest of the article makes clear the viewpoints of Dr Parnia’s opponents. Furthermore, who’s Dr Parnia (or anyone) to say that brain cells are “not really capable” of producing thought, when, two paragraphs earlier, he says “nobody fully understands” thought? > [@](#): > > The first is Pam Reynolds surgery, I show this because it is the best documented experience in existence. And it’s been rigorously debunked here and elsewhere. > [@](#): > > In summary, we have shown strong evidence of man’s spiritual nature and life after death. Nope. Neither. > [@](#): > > Scientists can do what they will, but the near death experiences will not go away. No they won’t, nor does anyone expect them to, nor does anyone want them to. They just don’t mean what you think they mean. > [@](#): > > I am not interested in scientific methods That there says just about everything anyone needs to know about you. It also seems quite strange that someone uninterested in the scientific method will so happily quote scientists when they happen to say something that sounds good to your cause. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654.md?page=2)