# lekatt's "Great Debate" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654 "2004-06-16T14:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/41 "2004-06-18T21:42:53Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > I found [this](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0892819278/104-1645040-0751153?v=glance) book very interesting. > > The author’s hypothesis is that an endogenous drug - a hallucinogen produced naturally by the brain - DMT (which also happens to be illegal), plays a role in spiritual, near-death, and alien abduction experiences. > > It also brings into question the role of drugs in the history of humanity. Maybe many of our most profound experiences are drug induced. so I was skimming this thread, scratching my ass and not paying too much attention til someone mentioned Dimethyltriptamine… as the commercial goes, “not just endogenous anymore…” (actually I didn’t know that I carried my own little lab with me somewhere in my (where is it, by the way–without benefit of any information whatsoever Im going to make at the cerebellum as opposed to the cortex, but in this, I am, without quibble, pissing into the wind. I shall repair to google momentarily, but couldn’t resist saluiting the all too rare reference to one of the amines I have known and loved, (props to you, Stanley…) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/42 "2004-06-18T21:58:14Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > I found [this](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0892819278/104-1645040-0751153?v=glance) book very interesting. > > The author’s hypothesis is that an endogenous drug - a hallucinogen produced naturally by the brain - DMT (which also happens to be illegal), plays a role in spiritual, near-death, and alien abduction experiences. > > It also brings into question the role of drugs in the history of humanity. Maybe many of our most profound experiences are drug induced. just wended way to tripzine, got to the paragraph mentioning “big doses” I’m going to have to pause a moment and collect myself, before reading further… I will say this, on the thread topic itself. If you are looking for your basic rocket fueled out of body experience, you really want to consider smoking a little DMT. (That is to say, I have heard people say this. I, myself, deny any personal experience of this kind…) ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/43 "2004-06-18T22:22:34Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > just wended way to tripzine, got to the paragraph mentioning > > “big doses” > > I’m going to have to pause a moment and collect myself, before reading further… > > I will say this, on the thread topic itself. > > If you are looking for your basic rocket fueled out of body experience, you really want to consider smoking a little DMT. > > (That is to say, I have heard people say this. I, myself, deny any personal experience of this kind…) Not really, smoking isn’t nearly as effective as an intra-muscular injection. I just got this book on DMT, and it’s fascinating. The one that was linked earlier. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/44 "2004-06-18T22:46:45Z")
> [@Ryle Dup](#): > > Not really, smoking isn’t nearly as effective as an intra-muscular injection. I just got this book on DMT, and it’s fascinating. The one that was linked earlier. Well, La-di-fuckin’-da. I, myself, inhibited perhaps by sensibilities too delicate for our modern (coarse?) age, would hesitate to recommend in general distribution a route of administration involving the penetration by needle of skin… but hey, that’s just me… you folks on the other side of the golden gate, well, what can I say? you are old-school hard core… ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/45 "2004-06-19T06:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **lekatt** :Didn’t mean to disappoint you, but the key word in my post is “above.” > > I think if you read them you will agree with me. My initial post _is_ above the one in which you posted your decision not to take the other posts seriously. I am not so interested in those experiences that happen at the time of death as I am those that seem to come about suddenly in a setting that is not related to what one thinks of as traditionally religious. **SentientMeat** , I am fascinated by your ability to repeat these states at will. My one experience (other than a waking dream) was so euphoric that I would never choose _not_ to be in that state if possible. Do you still return to these states? Have you considered having a brain scan done for scientific purposes during such a state? Have you ever considered that those states _might_ be as accurate in perception of some sort of objective reality as anything you experience on a regular day-to-day life? I understand if you don’t wish to discuss that in this thread. **lambchops** , your are more fun than most altered states of consciousness. Can anyone describe a “generic” DMT experience? (I’m assuming there is literature on the subject.) Again, if this is a hijack, I apologize. I’ve been known to have **LFNESMTIMD** ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/46 "2004-06-19T13:49:57Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > My initial post _is_ above the one in which you posted your decision not to take the other posts seriously. > > I am not so interested in those experiences that happen at the time of death as I am those that seem to come about suddenly in a setting that is not related to what one thinks of as traditionally religious. > > **SentientMeat** , I am fascinated by your ability to repeat these states at will. My one experience (other than a waking dream) was so euphoric that I would never choose _not_ to be in that state if possible. Do you still return to these states? Have you considered having a brain scan done for scientific purposes during such a state? > > Have you ever considered that those states _might_ be as accurate in perception of some sort of objective reality as anything you experience on a regular day-to-day life? > > I understand if you don’t wish to discuss that in this thread. > > **lambchops** , your are more fun than most altered states of consciousness. > > Can anyone describe a “generic” DMT experience? (I’m assuming there is literature on the subject.) > > Again, if this is a hijack, I apologize. I’ve been known to have **LFNESMTIMD** Zoe the post you made above my statement was directed to the OP, why would I answer it? Are you OK. Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/47 "2004-06-19T14:19:28Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Sorry, [My testimony](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=2826106). Finally got around to reading this, great experience. I will tell what I know about this state of consciousness. It is a transcendent state where the self is experience apart from the physical. Yoga’s have been known to achieve this through meditation and stand on one foot for as long as three days before returning to the physical. It is a great healing state for both physical and spiritual maladies. This state is sometimes “slipped” into unawares, like your experience. And, of course, there are no two of them exactly alike, follows the personal attributes of each individual as NDEs do. This is the first state of the NDE, the first thing experiencers notice is the feeling of self love. There is a great deal more to be said but not here. An example: [http://www.aleroy.com/board211.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/board211.htm) These states are spiritual and follow the spiritual nature of man. There is no one cause for them as with NDEs. They can be willed or happen spontaneously. My board also has a “Great Debates” section and the rules are enforced, if you can to talk there. Love ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/48 "2004-06-19T16:20:07Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Drugs in relation to NDEs have been researched in the past without any correlation shown. Comon, Lekatt, I expect better out of you. I assume you’re talking about Ketamine. Ketamine and DMT are completely different. Ketamine isn’t even endogenous. The experiences are nothing alike. Since you have no experience with altered states of consciousness, I don’t see who you are to talk. > [@alaricthegoth](#): > > I shall repair to google momentarily, but couldn’t resist saluiting the all too rare reference to one of the amines I have known and loved. Pleased to meet you. > [@Zoe](#): > > Can anyone describe a “generic” DMT experience? (I’m assuming there is literature on the subject.) Terence Mckenna, one of the leading voices for DMT (now deceased), would be happy to talk about it. [Mckenna on the DMT experience](http://www.kilbot.net/writing/dmt.php) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/49 "2004-06-19T21:48:02Z")
are we to proceed in this analysis with the assumption that a functionally definable vehicle of consciousness other than the human body is a necessary component of the model? and, if so, are we to exclude as counfounding any data which is tracable to the interaction of exogenous alkyiloids and the corporeal consciousness? as to both, why? note to lekatt-I am (perhaps mercifully, if I may so infer from some of the posts) unfamiliar with your endeavor, but I will presume to alert you (perhaps unnecessarily) to the mcgill u. prof working on mri to brain influence.) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/50 "2004-06-19T22:20:39Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > Comon, Lekatt, I expect better out of you. I assume you’re talking about Ketamine. Ketamine and DMT are completely different. Ketamine isn’t even endogenous. The experiences are nothing alike. > > Since you have no experience with altered states of consciousness, I don’t see who you are to talk. > > Pleased to meet you. > > Terence Mckenna, one of the leading voices for DMT (now deceased), would be happy to talk about it. > > [Mckenna on the DMT experience](http://www.kilbot.net/writing/dmt.php) I listened to the DMT experience, and it is nothing like a NDE. Ketamine produces an experience closer, but falls flat on many of the elements as talked about above. I have been researching NDEs for 17 years. I know one when I read one. Actually the DMT experience is more like the religious hysteria experiences where talking in unknown tongues, and seeing visions are reported. Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/51 "2004-06-19T22:28:06Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > are we to proceed in this analysis with the assumption that a functionally definable vehicle of consciousness other than the human body is a necessary component of the model? > > and, if so, are we to exclude as counfounding any data which is tracable to the interaction of exogenous alkyiloids and the corporeal consciousness? > > as to both, why? > > note to lekatt-I am (perhaps mercifully, if I may so infer from some of the posts) unfamiliar with your endeavor, but I will presume to alert you (perhaps unnecessarily) to the mcgill u. prof working on mri to brain influence.) Don’t be merciful on my sake, just take your best shot. I have been looking for counter evidence (proof) on this board for quite a while, not found any yet. When it happens to you, you leave your body and can go anywhere you wish, observe things happening in the physical from a spiritual position. No one has to explain to you what is going on, you know. If you return to your body you still know what went on. At about this time you become a believer, everyone does. Love ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/52 "2004-06-20T02:29:41Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I listened to the DMT experience, and it is nothing like a NDE. Love I would expect nothing less. I wasn’t posting McKenna for you. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/53 "2004-06-20T07:11:37Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have been looking for counter evidence (proof) on this board for quite a while, not found any yet. Come on, we’ve explained it to you _so_ many times. _You_ are making the claim, so _you_ have to provide the evidence. You did in a previous post to this thread, I responded to it, you ignored me. You’re telling yourself I’m not serious or I’m “mean” or whatever, but the truth is that I’m right. If I were wrong, it would be so easy for you to pound me to pieces. That you’re not doing that is further evidence that you are, in fact, wrong. For example, the Pam Reynolds surgery that you call the best documented case you have. It hinges, if I recall correctly, on Pam Reynolds describing a bone saw as “looking like an electric toothbrush”. That is _not_ very impressive. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/54 "2004-06-20T13:50:39Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Come on, we’ve explained it to you _so_ many times. _You_ are making the claim, so _you_ have to provide the evidence. You did in a previous post to this thread, I responded to it, you ignored me. You’re telling yourself I’m not serious or I’m “mean” or whatever, but the truth is that I’m right. If I were wrong, it would be so easy for you to pound me to pieces. That you’re not doing that is further evidence that you are, in fact, wrong. > > For example, the Pam Reynolds surgery that you call the best documented case you have. It hinges, if I recall correctly, on Pam Reynolds describing a bone saw as “looking like an electric toothbrush”. That is _not_ very impressive. Your response contained no cites, only “no” or statement wandering off topic, there was no debateable material You do not recall correctly: [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html) Love ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/55 "2004-06-20T18:21:29Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You do not recall correctly: > [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html) > Love Hahhahahaa. Oh man, I love this. The typical DMT trip is right there in front of your damn eyes! Within the first 3 sentences I can already tell its DMT. **"The next thing I recall was the sound: It was a Natural “D.”** - Okay, DMT causes you to hear a sound. **"As I listened to the sound, I felt it was pulling me out of the top of my head."** - Yup, DMT makes you leave your body. **"The further out of my body I got, the more clear the tone became."** - The sound is getting louder, just like on DMT. **"It was not like normal vision. It was brighter and more focused and clearer than normal vision ."** - Hmmmmm, EXACTLY what McKenna said about visual acuity. **"At some point very early in the tunnel vortex I became aware of my grandmother calling me."** - DMT causes audio hallucinations. **"The light was incredibly bright, like sitting in the middle of a light bulb."** - _Yawn_, extremely common on DMT. **"I recognized a lot of people."** - DMT causes you to see other beings. **"They would not permit me to go further … It was communicated to me - that’s the best way I know how to say it, because they didn’t speak like I’m speaking"** - Hmmmm maybe they were talking in a weird language JUST LIKE MCKENNA DEMONSTRATED! **"Then they [deceased relatives] were feeding me. They were not doing this through my mouth, like with food, but they were nourishing me with something. The only way I know how to put it is something sparkly."** - Jesus christ, didn’t McKenna mention some sparkly objects? Amazing. What now, Lekatt? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/56 "2004-06-20T19:04:16Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > Hahhahahaa. Oh man, I love this. The typical DMT trip is right there in front of your damn eyes! Within the first 3 sentences I can already tell its DMT. > > **"The next thing I recall was the sound: It was a Natural “D.”** - Okay, DMT causes you to hear a sound. > > **"As I listened to the sound, I felt it was pulling me out of the top of my head."** - Yup, DMT makes you leave your body. > > **"The further out of my body I got, the more clear the tone became."** - The sound is getting louder, just like on DMT. > > **"It was not like normal vision. It was brighter and more focused and clearer than normal vision ."** - Hmmmmm, EXACTLY what McKenna said about visual acuity. > > **"At some point very early in the tunnel vortex I became aware of my grandmother calling me."** - DMT causes audio hallucinations. > > **"The light was incredibly bright, like sitting in the middle of a light bulb."** - _Yawn_, extremely common on DMT. > > **"I recognized a lot of people."** - DMT causes you to see other beings. > > **"They would not permit me to go further … It was communicated to me - that’s the best way I know how to say it, because they didn’t speak like I’m speaking"** - Hmmmm maybe they were talking in a weird language JUST LIKE MCKENNA DEMONSTRATED! > > **"Then they [deceased relatives] were feeding me. They were not doing this through my mouth, like with food, but they were nourishing me with something. The only way I know how to put it is something sparkly."** - Jesus christ, didn’t McKenna mention some sparkly objects? Amazing. > > What now, Lekatt? Nothing really amazing about it to a person that has listened to and read the experiences. Pam’s experience was very different only you couldn’t tell from the account you gave. Your account was full of omissions and word changes, actually it is a bogus rendering. In the DMT account the unknown “people” were incouraging speaking in glossolalia format, or hysteria. You have only made your cause worse by providing misinformation about the accounts. While in real NDE accounts experiencers are often “fed” energy. This is for healing. The above account of Pam’s is not nearly all that happened either, just what was printed in the article. If you would like to read more of what happened try here. [http://thegroundoffaith.orcon.net.nz/pam.html](http://thegroundoffaith.orcon.net.nz/pam.html) As I continue posting cites, studies, and scientific research on NDEs, I will get more and more exact. Love ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/57 "2004-06-20T20:50:10Z")
Okay, Lekatt, for your next reply, I demand a few things from you. For me to take your argument seriously, answer each of my questions individually. > [@Lekatt](#): > > Your account was full of omissions and word changes Now you’re lying. I didn’t change a thing! 1.) Tell me EXACTLY what I changed! Tell me where I changed the meaning of her account! _Nobody_ experiences the exact same thing Terence McKenna does - stop using minor differences to make support for your “cause”. What about the sparkles? What about the language that she couldn’t understand? What about the focused vision? 2.) Doesn’t that sound like DMT, Lekatt? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/58 "2004-06-20T21:06:24Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > Okay, Lekatt, for your next reply, I demand a few things from you. For me to take your argument seriously, answer each of my questions individually. > > Now you’re lying. I didn’t change a thing! > > 1.) Tell me EXACTLY what I changed! Tell me where I changed the meaning of her account! > > _Nobody_ experiences the exact same thing Terence McKenna does - stop using minor differences to make support for your “cause”. > > What about the sparkles? What about the language that she couldn’t understand? What about the focused vision? > > 2.) Doesn’t that sound like DMT, Lekatt? If not, why not? I will leave this one to the readers to compare for themselves. Love ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/59 "2004-06-21T01:52:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > As I continue posting cites, studies, and scientific research on NDEs, I will get more and more exact. You’ve been saying that since you first posted here. I have yet to see you move in that direction. **Psilocybe** I hope you spend the $15 and stick around. You seem to know much, my mycological friend. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/60 "2004-06-21T04:43:15Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > when you search for TRUTH, the scientific method is the way to go. Is that always true? If so, then what scientific methodology did you use to determine that the scientific method is the only valid means of searching for truth? Remember, I want a description of the _scientific methodology_ that you used to arrive at that conclusion. I will accept nothing less. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654.md?page=4)