# lekatt's "Great Debate" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654 "2004-06-16T14:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/81 "2004-06-22T01:54:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > According to what you just posted, you _dreamed_ about having an NDE. You were not near death. You were nowhere near death. You didn’t even have a papercut at the time. Every time you post on this message board that you had an NDE, _I_ will be there to correct you. > _Every time._ > I don’t care if you post your opinions about what NDEs are. > I don’t care if you _never_ give actual evidence to back up your claims. > But I will correct you every single time you claim to have had an NDE. I see that you are going to continue the attacks. But I will give you the doubt, maybe you didn’t read my history. [http://www.aleroy.com/Person.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/Person.htm) “In the early 80’s things started to come apart. The Oil Industry Bust, Desktop Publishing and a general downturn in business made profitability impossible. Tried to hang on to my business for a while believing things would get better. They got worse. This period of working longer hours for less money caused a deterioration of health and in 1987 I was diagnosed as having severe heart disease.” ## “The Heart Specialist recommended surgery with a warning that I might live only 6 more months without it. But, I opted to wait and see if it would improve with a program of diet, and mild exercise. After about two months of trying this cure with minimal results I had an experience that changed my life forever.” ## I actually had a heart attack on Jan. 1, 1987. As I said above the doctor told me I wouldn’t live six months without surgery. I didn’t have sufficient insurance, very tight with money. So I said no. Not wanting to burden my family with bills if I died. I was going regularly to the doctor at the time of my NDE. Perhaps you didn’t know this, didn’t read my site, or just didn’t ask. I don’t know. If you want to continue the personal attacks, I can’t stop you, but I will write out a full detail of my heart condition, for those who care to know. You will not run my off this board with your attacks. I forgive you again Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/82 "2004-06-22T01:59:14Z")
What difference would it make whether I had an experience or not to the debates on this board about NDEs? Oh, well, forget it, Love ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/83 "2004-06-22T02:04:17Z")
You had a bad dream sometime after being told that you had a heart problem. Did I miss the part where you were in the hospital having an actual heart attack when this “NDE” happened? Did I accidentally skip over the passage where doctors heroically revived you immediately after you had the “NDE”? Am I the only one who mysteriously didn’t see the passage in you narrative where the doctors told you you had just had a heart attack? No? I didn’t think so. BTW, thanks, but no thanks for the “forgiveness”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/84 "2004-06-22T02:11:01Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > You’re dodging my question. Unless you can _scientifically_ prove that the scientific method is the only valid path to the truth, then your argument is self-refuting. Indeed, every time that you offer an argument which does not use the scientific method, you are proving my point. [sup]Emphasis mine[/sup] Ummm… you want a _scientific proof_ of the _scientific method_? Assuming this were possible, on what basis would you accept the proof unless you already accepted the method by which it was derived, in which case you would presumably already have seen the proof. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/85 "2004-06-22T02:11:38Z")
**Lekatt** I have read that story(Though not for a while). You mention being in bed with your wife, going to sleep, and having the experience of being out of your body and conversing with a being of light. This being asks you ‘Do you wish to continue?’. I’m not even sure what this question means- Do you wish to stop this journey and go back to your body and continue your life? Or Do you wish to die and continue this journey with me? Eventually, you woke up. I saw no proof that you were actually near death- no record of a heart attack that night, no wife waking up to give you cpr or call 911. No stay in the hospital following a cardiac event. I have read your site. But, it is all just a reminder of how badly you were maimed. Each reading hurt more and more. After the last visit, I began sobbing uncontrolably and spent three days on the floor in the fetal position. Having no wish to experience that kind of pain, or pay those kind of carpet cleaning bills, I haven’t visited since then. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/86 "2004-06-22T05:17:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you will go through my first post you will find all the material you seek. I don’t want to keep reposting it either. No, because the questions were asked _in response_ to your first post. They’ll remain on the list until you see fit to respond to them. > [@](#): > > As for the “contradiction” you believe you caught me saying. Both are true and do not contradict themselves at all. The first refers to the judgement you will perform on your own actions. That will take place as said. The second refers to “judgement day” the Christian concept of God’s judging us all on the “day of judgement” and that will not happen as said. I knew you’d find some way to rationalize this obvious contradiction; I just wasn’t sure exactly how. As anyone who follows my provided links sees quite clearly, both threads were about the same thing and your answers were about the same thing. [The first](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162775&postid=2990959#post2990959) was **Mr. Blue Sky** asking about Judgment Day in different religions. Your response: “According to near death experiences, yes, there will be a judgement.” [The other](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162775&postid=4414459#post4414459) was **AcidKid** asking, half-jokingly, about how to determine the time of Judgment Day, given that all religions have a different one. Your response: “I don’t believe there will ever be a judgement day.” At no time was the Christian concept of Judgment Day specifically singled out in either thread. This is a clear contradiction and invalidates your oft-repeated claim that you have infallible knowledge of the afterlife. The updated list: Stuff **Lekatt** Refuses To Respond To: What reason is there to believe there is a “mind” separate from the body? What evidence is there that “brain waves” come from outside the brain? How can you and van Lommel find it justified to say that NDEs have no physiological cause when physiological factors such as age have been linked to NDEs? Why do you selectively quote articles, such as the one quoting Dr Parnia, so that it seems like they agree with you? What is your response to Dr Parnia’s critics, also quoted in the same article? Where is the documentation of the Pam Reynolds surgery, according to you the best documented NDE, showing the correlation between Reynolds’s memories and reality? Why isn’t it strange that brain researchers think the brain is incredibly complex, and you don’t? If you truly do not care about scientific methods, as you have stated, why do you continue to drag scientific studies into the discussion, demand cites, and so on? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/87 "2004-06-22T09:38:59Z")
> [@](#): > > If researchers don’t think brains are hardwired why do they insist on mapping them. Please define “hardwired” for me - I’m not sure how you’re using the word. The brain [forms new neural connections](http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/rltdsci/nplast/u0.html). Is this what is meant by “hardwired”? It forms them [throughout a lifetime](http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/rltdsci/nplast/u4.html), indeed Huntington’s Disease is _directly attributable_ to neurogenesis. Do you disagree? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe the brain is more difficult than any other organ Very well, can you tell me the function of the hippocampus, amygdala and prefrontal cortex? Surely that’s as easy as telling me what the heart does? > [@](#): > > I quoted the good Doctor exactly. There was no misrepresentation here, what you saw, was what he said. A psychological factor is neither a medical factor nor a spiritual factor, agreed? > [@](#): > > Let me say that there is no such thing as the supernatural. I agree with you. The spirit is an Ockhamly unnecessary entity. > [@](#): > > Now it is time for you to show cites backing up your claims. I keep directing you to neurological research papers and you keep denying that they are evidence of correlation between experiential and physical entities. How **could** I convince you that the physical can be correlated with the experiential? Let’s do [this paper](http://neuroscience.jhu.edu/molecules2memory.pdf) again, a PDF entitled “From molecules to Memory”. In this paper, a mouse was given a shock after a tone. No activity occurred in the cerebellum during the tone, until the shock itself. After having this done many times, the _tone_ **caused activity in the cerebellum which was not there before**. _“Learning” caused a measurable physical difference in the mouse’s brain._ How can you disagree with this statement? How can you say that this is _not_ evidence of a correlation? > [@](#): > > What difference would it make whether I had an experience or not to the debates on this board about NDEs? We care not one jot about whether you had a profound and powerful _experience_ - after all, I’ve had them myself. What concerns us is that you believe that this is _evidence of an afterlife_ rather than simply a powerful **DREAM**. I believe _my_ experiences were effectively **DREAMS**. That night, I believe you had a **DREAM** in which you were asked whether you wanted to continue living, not a heart attack which almost killed you. Being asked whether you want to continue living **does not put you Near Death**. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/88 "2004-06-22T11:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Huntington’s Disease is directly attributable to neurogenesis Apologies, of course this is false - HD _kills_ neurons. I meant to say “in HD research, results are directly attributable to neurogenesis.” ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/89 "2004-06-22T11:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > What reason is there to believe there is a “mind” separate from the body? I’ll tackle this one if **lekatt** won’t. Both philosophy and physics suggest it, although, I’ll grant you that neither one proves it. Philosophically, if you start out assuming you don’t know anything, what do you notice? Well, there’s the laws of logic; they’re true. And then you have these perceptions. There seem to be two kinds of perceptions: one kind is more vivid than the other kind, and you don’t have as much direct control over the vivid ones, which seem to come from outside you, unlike the less vivid perceptions. So you give them names: the not-so-vivid-kind are your thoughts and feelings. Then you theorize that there’s a material world that exists outside of you causing these vivid perceptions. But perception, a mental event, came first. To turn around and say that the material world causes the mind is kind of like the tail wagging the dog. Now physics: Quantum mechanics describes the world using wave functions, which express the probability of something being at a given place moving at given speed in a given direction. When you make a measurement, the wave function suddenly changes to a new one: you have more information now, so you can rule out _any_ probability of certain locations, speeds, and/or directions; at least at the instant you made the measurement. This interaction, the collapse of the wave function, is different from another object interacting with the first one: that would involve a second wave function interacting with the first. This suggest that observation–the mind interacting with the physical world–may involve something non-physical. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/90 "2004-06-22T11:48:09Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > I’ll tackle this one if **lekatt** won’t. Both philosophy and physics suggest it, although, I’ll grant you that neither one proves it. Philosophically, if you start out assuming you don’t know anything, what do you notice? Well, there’s the laws of logic; they’re true. And then you have these perceptions. There seem to be two kinds of perceptions: one kind is more vivid than the other kind, and you don’t have as much direct control over the vivid ones, which seem to come from outside you, unlike the less vivid perceptions. So you give them names: the not-so-vivid-kind are your thoughts and feelings. Then you theorize that there’s a material world that exists outside of you causing these vivid perceptions. But perception, a mental event, came first. To turn around and say that the material world causes the mind is kind of like the tail wagging the dog. I’m not sure I follow you. Are you saying that the material world _doesn’t_ cause the perceptions? > [@](#): > > Now physics: Quantum mechanics describes the world using wave functions, which express the probability of something being at a given place moving at given speed in a given direction. When you make a measurement, the wave function suddenly changes to a new one: you have more information now, so you can rule out _any_ probability of certain locations, speeds, and/or directions; at least at the instant you made the measurement. This interaction, the collapse of the wave function, is different from another object interacting with the first one: that would involve a second wave function interacting with the first. This suggest that observation–the mind interacting with the physical world–may involve something non-physical. I’m not a quantum physicist (but I’m sure one will be along shortly), but I do not agree with this at all. Observation is not something non-physical. It requires instruments that, given the incredibly smallness of the observed events, necessarily influence them. If you stick a thermometer into a bathtub, the thermometer will alter the water’s temperature ever so slightly. At that level, we won’t notice or care. At the quantum level, these influences are much, much greater. There is nothing non-physical about that. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/91 "2004-06-22T11:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > When you make a measurement, the wave function suddenly changes to a new one No, I think you are misunderstanding the [wavefunction collapse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavefunction_collapse). There are different [interpretations of quantum mechanics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics), but none of them necessitates an appeal to _non_-physical entities. This “mind’s interaction with the physical world” is no more mystical than _finding out_ which room you are in by opening your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/92 "2004-06-22T12:01:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Please define “hardwired” for me - I’m not sure how you’re using the word. > > The brain [forms new neural connections](http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/rltdsci/nplast/u0.html). Is this what is meant by “hardwired”? It forms them [throughout a lifetime](http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/rltdsci/nplast/u4.html), indeed Huntington’s Disease is _directly attributable_ to neurogenesis. Do you disagree? > Very well, can you tell me the function of the hippocampus, amygdala and prefrontal cortex? Surely that’s as easy as telling me what the heart does? > A psychological factor is neither a medical factor nor a spiritual factor, agreed? > I agree with you. The spirit is an Ockhamly unnecessary entity. > I keep directing you to neurological research papers and you keep denying that they are evidence of correlation between experiential and physical entities. How **could** I convince you that the physical can be correlated with the experiential? > > Let’s do [this paper](http://neuroscience.jhu.edu/molecules2memory.pdf) again, a PDF entitled “From molecules to Memory”. In this paper, a mouse was given a shock after a tone. No activity occurred in the cerebellum during the tone, until the shock itself. After having this done many times, the _tone_ **caused activity in the cerebellum which was not there before**. > > _“Learning” caused a measurable physical difference in the mouse’s brain._ How can you disagree with this statement? How can you say that this is _not_ evidence of a correlation? > > We care not one jot about whether you had a profound and powerful _experience_ - after all, I’ve had them myself. What concerns us is that you believe that this is _evidence of an afterlife_ rather than simply a powerful **DREAM**. I believe _my_ experiences were effectively **DREAMS**. That night, I believe you had a **DREAM** in which you were asked whether you wanted to continue living, not a heart attack which almost killed you. Being asked whether you want to continue living **does not put you Near Death**. You have continuall ignored my cites and evidence of consciousness living after the death of the body. You keep pushing your cite which could mean anything. An experiment on a mouse. This difference does not “have” to be memory. It seems the closer we get to truth the meaner the posts become. Personal attacks are always calls for help. If you want to back off and focus on one question at a time, it will be better. Otherwise I see this thread which started badly will end badly. I am not discouraged, just will spend my time with those who want to learn. [http://www.alternativescience.com/no\_brainer.htm](http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm) Love ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/93 "2004-06-22T12:02:23Z")
> [@](#): > > It requires instruments that, given the incredibly smallness of the observed events, necessarily influence them. This is not correct either, **Priceguy**. The problems in interpreting QM are nothing to do with the equipment, they are fundamentally counterintuitive. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/94 "2004-06-22T12:11:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You have continuall ignored my cites and evidence of consciousness living after the death of the body. As you ignore questions put to you, criticisms of your cites and evidence, and the question of why you care about cites or evidence at all when you’ve stated that you are not interested in scientific methods. > [@](#): > > An experiment on a mouse. This difference does not “have” to be memory. So what is it? Do you have a better explanation? If not, why should we accept your view over the view that has a good explanation? You seem to be choosing your evidence very selectively. The mind can be nonphysical, and according to you it is. The changes in the mouse brain can be memory, but according to you it isn’t. How do you distinguish? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/95 "2004-06-22T12:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > You have continuall ignored my cites and evidence of consciousness living after the death of the body. You have not shown anything which _had_ to be explained like this. Everything you have shown _could_ be explained by dreams and guesswork. Now, you choose your explanation and I’ll choose mine, but do not pretend that these citations are _evidence_ for consciousness after death. They simply are not. > [@](#): > > This difference does not “have” to be memory. You agree that it _correlates_? If so, why propose a _further_ entity to explain it? Yet again, I ask: How do **you** EXPLAIN the activity in the cerebellum? > [@](#): > > If you want to back off and focus on one question at a time, it will be better. I _am_ asking you one question at a time. You are _ignoring_ them. Why _couldn’t_ your experience be a **dream**? > [@](#): > > [http://www.alternativescience.com/no\_brainer.htm](http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm) **THIS IS A SPOOF WEBSITE**. PLEASE tell me you are not calling _this_ “evidence”. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/96 "2004-06-22T12:13:39Z")
**SentientMeat** , I’m sure you are better informed about Quantum Mechanics than I, but are you really saying that the act of observation does _not_ influence the event? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/97 "2004-06-22T12:24:23Z")
> [@](#): > > are you really saying that the act of observation does not influence the event? In a manner of speaking, under some interpretations, it might be said to do so. But it is nothing so simple as, for example, the screen in the [two slit experiment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment) somehow ‘affecting’ the particles it detects.And, Lord help me, that website **lekatt** cited appears to be deadly serious. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/98 "2004-06-22T12:42:58Z")
It appears I need to read more on the subject. I’ll be back, but not in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/99 "2004-06-22T13:26:21Z")
Lekatt, Here’s a contradiction. lekatt Charter Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,522 Location: Quote: Originally Posted by trandallt Exactly what would be the nature of evidence that God (or anything else for that matter) does not exist? God is usually represented as higher intelligence, a director, one that brings order out of chaos. So in the absence of God you would find only chaos, random events without stability of any kind. Nothing could live in temperature swings of 1000 degrees coupled with random flooding and random foliage producing random supplies of oxygen, etc… The best argument for God still rests with intelligent design, unless of course, you have met God and talked with Him. But back to the OP. we are not servants, we enjoy the status of children learning to be like our Father. I am sure there is much more to it than we can know. Love How can foliage produce oxygen in an environment where nothing could live? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/100 "2004-06-22T13:33:34Z")
> [@Czar](#): > > BTW, thanks, but no thanks for the “forgiveness”. Forgiveness actually heals the forgiver, who lets go of certain moral dead weight that serves only to fulfill a self-imposed punishment. So, I wouldn’t take someone’s offer of forgivenss to mean that I am in need of some sort of moral dispensation; rather, I would take it to mean that the person forgiving me has finally found some moral resolution within himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654.md?page=6)