# lekatt's "Great Debate" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654 "2004-06-16T14:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/101 "2004-06-22T15:04:30Z")
[http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/lorber-references.html](http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/lorber-references.html) [http://www.mysteries.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/6,2.htm](http://www.mysteries.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/6,2.htm) Love ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/102 "2004-06-22T15:12:12Z")
I do not know what your reference to Professor Lorber was meant to signify. Could you be more specific? In your second reference, the question was posed: _How can one **recover** from brain damage?_ I actually provided an explanation for this many posts ago. The concept is called [Neuroplasticity](http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/rltdsci/nplast/u0.html) - the brain’s **natural** reparatory ability via [neurogenesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis). **lekatt** , I’m still not convinced that you really understand the principle of Ockham’s Razor. I ask you to follow my analogy through one more time, and then I’ll ask you a single question which I would really, _really_ like you to answer after a good long think about it: Let us say I believed that computers were actually run from the Great Beyond. All of the programs, memories and applications which appeared on the monitor come not from the chip activity, nor the hard drive, nor any _physical_ source. These are merely the “relays” or “interface” between the Beyond and the computer user. The _actual_ cause of all the activity on the screen, I say, is communications from a spirit realm. If you showed me the magnetic domains on the hard drive I could say that the communications from the Beyond _caused_ those physical changes. If you showed me how interfering with the chip changes the program, I could say that this was because the “interface” is broken, _ie._ that the physical changes _affect_ the communications with the Beyond but don’t _cause_ the program to work. No matter how carefully you explain the mechanics of how certain things on the screen correlated with certain activity in the chip, RAM and ROM, I could simply say that these were physical _manifestations_ of _spiritual_ activity. Here is the fundamental, crucial question which I believe it encompasses this entire thread: [ul]_How would you convince me that the computer was **not** merely a vessel for communications from the Beyond if I held that all of your scientific electronics was just an irrelevant “theory”?_[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/103 "2004-06-22T15:26:29Z")
Further to this idea of “brainlessness”, the citation before conflated two different conditions. It is true that those with a smaller brain have attained maths degrees _etc._. But that citation implied that someone with almost _no_ brain had done so. The almost completely brainless child could only roll around, blind and dumb, on his back. Even _mice_ could manage this, and a mouse brain in a human skull would likely be labelled “almost brainless”. ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/104 "2004-06-22T16:47:54Z")
> [@Leroy](#): > > About 2:00 a.m. I awoke feeling very strange. I couldn’t see anything, but felt an energy or electric-like current running through me. “Every night Pinoline (made by the pineal gland), DMT and 5meoDMT are produced in the brain and are the causal agents of vivid dreams.” [cite](http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro03/web1/npatel.html) Awww, look at that, the brain releases DMT every single night. Looks like your brain released a little too much that night. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/105 "2004-06-23T01:05:36Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > “Every night Pinoline (made by the pineal gland), DMT and 5meoDMT are produced in the brain and are the causal agents of vivid dreams.” > [cite](http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro03/web1/npatel.html) > > Awww, look at that, the brain releases DMT every single night. Looks like your brain released a little too much that night. nice review article. first time to see serendip, also. thx. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/106 "2004-06-23T02:46:40Z")
While we may not agree with everyone who expresses an opinion based on experience, it is our obligation, as researchers, scientists or just seekers, to PAY ATTENTION. None of us has a monopoly on truth, and all the witty retorts in the Universe don’t change this. In fact, accepted “truth” has been overturned numerous times during what we call our establishment of knowledge. Lekatt has information to share. Just because he shares it in a manner that some perceive as obnoxious does not subtract from the validity of the experience. Indeed, we who consider ourselves researchers must cut beyond the personal bias and extract that which is valuable from that which is anecdotal, always. If you are not interested in truth, then feel free to discharge any and all who disagree with your narrow point of view. IMNSHO, there’s a lot who fall into that category. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/107 "2004-06-23T02:55:45Z")
There are lots of excellent requests for elaboration/explanation/erudition/etc. that would serve to expand our knowledge. Not that lekatt can answer them, but worthy of examination. lekatt is like a stone in our shoe. We are not really sure it’s there, and it may take more energy than we are able to muster to dislodge it, so some of us will address it, some will ignore it. Maybe it’s just a fold in our sock, right? Ignore it and it will go away. Shift position and it will disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/108 "2004-06-23T04:55:35Z")
Further observations. Not all information is equal. Not all information is valid. Not all information is truth. Not all statements are information. Some anecdotes have no useful information whatsoever. Given a finite lifespan, it is essential that one learn to differentiate between valid information and useless anecdote, because to do otherwise is to throw away one’s life needlessly. _you ain’t gonna find a Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box_-Meatloaf ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/109 "2004-06-23T11:32:19Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Lekatt has information to share. Just because he shares it in a manner that some perceive as obnoxious does not subtract from the validity of the experience. It’s not that his manner is obnoxious. Usually, it isn’t. It’s that much of his information is demonstrably false, that he is impervious to counter-arguments, reason and facts, that he continues to make the same claims long after they have been thoroughly debunked and falsified, that he contradicts himself and observed reality and doesn’t acknowledge it, and so on and so on. I believe you haven’t read the many previous threads were **lekatt** displayed this behaviour. Do so. If you still think we’re treating him too harshly, come back and say so. One good place to start is the “Contact with the Great Beyond–Psychics like Praagh” thread. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/110 "2004-06-23T11:59:19Z")
I think you’re being a little harsh there, **Priceguy**. I don’t think **lekatt** has said much which is outright _demonstrably false_ here yet, indeed most of what he says is simply not falsifi **able**. His problem is rather more difficult to address - it is that he does not _understand_ Ockham’s Razor. The example I put to him, which he has not yet replied to, was that even though **electronics** can provide a _feasible explanation_ for every aspect of a computer, one cannot offer any evidence that computer activity is _not_ caused by communications from a spiritual dimension. Similarly, even though **neuroscience** (including dreams and ‘guesswork’) can provide a _feasible explanation_ for NDE’s, “near-brainlessness”, recovery from brain damage, guessed/audible details of an operation when unconscious, or any other citation which **lekatt** proposes as evidence for a spiritual or consciousness outside the brain, he persists in appealing to the **unnecessary**. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/111 "2004-06-23T13:27:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I think you’re being a little harsh there, **Priceguy**. I don’t think **lekatt** has said much which is outright _demonstrably false_ here yet, indeed most of what he says is simply not falsifi **able**. I may have been a bit harsh, but on the other hand, you’re being a bit lenient. He has made quite a few demonstrably false statements, general ones such as “Life after death is scientifically proven” and specific ones such as the Houdini one. > [@](#): > > His problem is rather more difficult to address - it is that he does not _understand_ Ockham’s Razor. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/112 "2004-06-23T14:57:55Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Lekatt has information to share. Just because he shares it in a manner that some perceive as obnoxious does not subtract from the validity of the experience. No, but the lack of Residium on his NCCF does. > [@](#): > > Indeed, we who consider ourselves researchers must cut beyond the personal bias and extract that which is valuable from that which is anecdotal, always. I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/113 "2004-06-23T16:07:32Z")
I provided cites from scientific studies and research, some were published in scientific journals. I provided a lot of evidence for the points I was making. In return I received only one cite of the study of a mouse. I also received heckling, personal attacks from a moderator, and numerous senseless posts. When I came to this board I thought it was the best, I have learned its not, rules are broken regularly depending on your beliefs. I have given this a lot of thought, and in the light of the recent personal attacks by the moderator I can no longer post on this board. I want to find a place where serious discussions can take place on serious subjects without the kind of interference found here. If by chance anyone would want to discuss some of these subjects with me post them on the board below in the “Great Debates” section. This board will be moderated honestly. [http://www.aleroy.com/forums/](http://www.aleroy.com/forums/) Love ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/114 "2004-06-23T16:22:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _you ain’t gonna find a Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box_-Meatloaf Actually, that should read: _But there ain’t no Coupe de Ville Hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box_ - Jim Steinman ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/115 "2004-06-23T16:47:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I provided cites from scientific studies and research, some were published in scientific journals. I provided a lot of evidence for the points I was making. > > In return I received only one cite of the study of a mouse. Your cites of “scientific studies and research” have been shown to not even be related to the points you were making countless times. You refuse to acknowledge those points, and continue to complain that people are ignoring them. Please. There has been more than one cite than the study of the mouse. You are deliberately lying now lekatt. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/116 "2004-06-23T17:41:51Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] DocCathode, kindly quit baiting lekatt with the “Residium” schtick. We have enough _real_ crazy people here without trying to out-crazy them, and the joke’s been stretched a bit too far. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/117 "2004-06-23T19:57:50Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Actually, that should read: > _But there ain’t no Coupe de Ville > Hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box_ - Jim Steinman Steinman??? The estimable Mr. Loaf? Holy Cow! I can’t believe it…Look at that kid go… ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/118 "2004-06-23T20:40:52Z")
**DocCathode** , now that Guadere has called time-out, I just have to say thank you. If you were a man of lesser morals (comparable to, say, L. Ron Hubbard) I am sure you could spin NCCFs, Resdium et al. into a series of books, possibly a religion, and a decent fortune. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/119 "2004-06-23T21:42:13Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > Steinman??? > > The estimable Mr. Loaf? > > Holy Cow! I can’t believe it…Look at that kid go… Jim Steinman wrote the entire album, the estimable Mr Loaf sang it. Different people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654/120 "2004-06-23T22:21:07Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Actually, that should read: > _But there ain’t no Coupe de Ville > Hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box_ - Jim Steinman I sit corrected. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-great-debate/250654.md?page=7)