# lekatt's recent hijacks (removed from original threads) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686 "2008-03-29T02:00:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/1 "2008-03-29T02:00:19Z")
Not wanting to get into the fray, but if the OP is real, then research has already shown consciousness can live after the death of the brain and body. This does point to an afterlife. Turn your search engines in that direction and discover science’s contribution to that of which you speak. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/2 "2008-03-29T02:10:36Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Not wanting to get into the fray, but if the OP is real, then research has already shown consciousness can live after the death of the brain and body. This does point to an afterlife. Turn your search engines in that direction and discover science’s contribution to that of which you speak. [/QUOTE] Whoa, [flashback](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261872)! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/3 "2008-03-29T03:59:28Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Not wanting to get into the fray, but if the OP is real, then research has already shown consciousness can live after the death of the brain and body. This does point to an afterlife. Turn your search engines in that direction and discover science’s contribution to that of which you speak. [/QUOTE] I tell you what. Instead of me sifting through 50,000 pages of moonbats parroting ignorant rubbish, why don’t you post the links to where science has shown consciousness independent of the brain and body? Please. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/4 "2008-03-29T06:27:41Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Not wanting to get into the fray, but if the OP is real, then research has already shown consciousness can live after the death of the brain and body. This does point to an afterlife. Turn your search engines in that direction and discover science’s contribution to that of which you speak. [/QUOTE] If you do not want to “get into the fray,” then do not post. [QUOTE=Lobohan] I tell you what. Instead of me sifting through 50,000 pages of moonbats parroting ignorant rubbish, why don’t you post the links to where science has shown consciousness independent of the brain and body? Please. [/QUOTE] He has already posted various anecdotes in which people were reported to have experienced some sort of phenomenon either before or after (but never recorded during) a brain death event ([such as in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9014050#post9014050)[up through this response](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9015350#post9015350)) This path leads to a hijack and I suggest that it be dropped or opened in a separate thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/5 "2008-03-30T13:11:17Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Except that the so called evidence or, more accurately, claims and assertions made by believers in the so called supernatural have never been examined by any scientists in an honest manner, as far as I’m aware. Contempt prior to investigation appears to be the standard approach by the scientific community to anything connected to the so called supernatural. To take a really easy one to ‘debunk’ or ‘prove’ using modern sound technology is the so called EVP (Electronic Voice Phenomena). It would be easy to set up a simple protocol for this. (Hint: the involvement of graveyards is definitely not needed here). Here is an alleged phenomenon that an accredited group of non superstitious James Randi type researchers could, at very little cost, prove or disprove as existing or non existent using modern technology. Why hasn’t it been done? Because scientists dismiss it out of hand. Contempt prior to investigation. [/QUOTE] I believe you have some very good points. I agree psychology is pseudo-science, and I was a psychology major in college. They only test behaviour, and each individual is unique in behaviour. The fact that scientists tend to dismiss spiritual phenomenon out of hand is not right. But some scientists are investigating spiritual themes, especially in near death experiences. There is a growing consenses that consciousness does continue to live after the death of the body. I will leave a link to a story about such research, there are more. [http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb334515.htm](http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb334515.htm) It would be nice if it was not met with contempt prior to investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/6 "2008-03-30T13:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] There is a growing consenses that consciousness does continue to live after the death of the body. [/QUOTE] Cite? > [@](#): > > I will leave a link to a story about such research, there are more. > > [http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb334515.htm](http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb334515.htm) > > It would be nice if it was not met with contempt prior to investigation. You are correct in calling it a story. That’s all it is. No need for contempt, but it contains absolutely nothing in the way of evidence, much less proof, of your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/7 "2008-03-30T16:14:14Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Cite? You are correct in calling it a story. That’s all it is. No need for contempt, but it contains absolutely nothing in the way of evidence, much less proof, of your assertion. [/QUOTE] I knew someone would say that. You see it’s a story about the research done by this doctor that was published in a scientific journal. It is valid. But so what else is new. > [@](#): > > –Dr. Michael Sabom did a study on over 57 cardiac patients who had clinically died and were brought back, 32 of whom had experienced Veridical OBEs and had described in great detail their own resusitations during cardiac arrest, and 25 of whom had not experienced an OBE during their cardiac arrest. He had two groups, the experiencers who saw in their OBEs and the non-experiencers who did not, describe their resusitations. To his suprise, 80% of the non-experiencers made serious mistakes. On the other hand, all of the experiencers did not make a single mistake. > > –Dr. Pim Van Lommel did a more indepth study with 344 cardiac patients independently of Dr. Michael Sabom with similar results. They made sure that their subjects could be verified as flatlined during the experiences. > –Dr. Kenneth Ring did a study on Veridical NDEs of 31 persons who were born blind and found that they could veridically “see” events while their OBE unfolded the same way sighted people’s do. > > I’d like to add that Dr. Michael Sabom and Dr. Pim Van Lommel and Dr. Kenneth Ring’s Research were published in PEER REVIEWED Science Journals. More “stories” about research. Someday these doctors will have the respect they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/8 "2008-03-30T16:35:49Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I knew someone would say that. You see it’s a story about the research done by this doctor that was published in a scientific journal. It is valid. But so what else is new. More “stories” about research. Someday these doctors will have the respect they deserve. [/QUOTE] Tell me Lekatt, have you ever encountered something too stupid for you to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/9 "2008-03-30T17:15:11Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I knew someone would say that. You see it’s a story about the research done by this doctor that was published in a scientific journal. It is valid. But so what else is new. [/QUOTE] Your point would be much stronger if you linked to the research, rather than a story about the research. Stories prove nothing. And that story is merely about interviews. What scientific journal? Which issue? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/10 "2008-03-30T18:21:59Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] Tell me Lekatt, have you ever encountered something too stupid for you to believe? [/QUOTE] Well, Yes, I have, the belief that I was created by my brain. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/11 "2008-03-30T19:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] > [@lekatt](#): > > I’d like to add that Dr. Michael Sabom and Dr. Pim Van Lommel and Dr. Kenneth Ring’s Research were published in PEER REVIEWED Science Journals. More “stories” about research. Someday these doctors will have the respect they deserve. [/QUOTE] I have already pointed out in an earlier thread the error you make with your claim: I will try to lay this out as clearly as I can. Consistent timeline for every reported episode: **Point A** : Subject suffers trauma. **Point B** : Subject enters flat-line state. **Point C** : Subject exits flat-line state. **Point D** : Subject regains consciousness. **Point E** : Subject later describes an OBE. **We do not have any evidence that an OBE occurred between Points B and C and NOT between Points A and B or Points C and D (or even Points D and E).** None. Not one. Take this nonsense to a separate thread. Lancet publishes many anecdotes from doctors and I have no reason to question Dr. Sabom’s veracity nor do I intend to claim that he is wrong. However, you have not provided a single example of a “peer reviewed” case and your continued posting of that claim without ever bothering to provide any evidence is simply distracting to the discussion that is going on here. Disingenuously citing [your own websiite](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=72) to make an unsupported claim is not appropriate behavior in this Forum. Provide actual citations from peer reviewed studies from Drs. Sabom, Van Lommel, and Ring that actually describe what you claim for them, (as opposed to the timeline I outlined above), or refrain from interrupting these threads with your witnessing and stick to your own threads. **Everyone else** : these claims are a hijack of this thread and any further discussion of NDE/OBE matters will be removed from this thread. NDE/OBE claims are a legitimate topic to discuss, but it is not appropriate to allow _this_ discussion to get derailed by one more tangent onto the personal beliefs of a single poster who resolutely declines to discuss the topic in an honest fashion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/12 "2008-03-30T20:34:22Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I have already pointed out in an earlier thread the error you make with your claim: I will try to lay this out as clearly as I can. Consistent timeline for every reported episode: **Point A** : Subject suffers trauma. **Point B** : Subject enters flat-line state. **Point C** : Subject exits flat-line state. **Point D** : Subject regains consciousness. **Point E** : Subject later describes an OBE. **We do not have any evidence that an OBE occurred between Points B and C and NOT between Points A and B or Points C and D (or even Points D and E).** None. Not one. Take this nonsense to a separate thread. Lancet publishes many anecdotes from doctors and I have no reason to question Dr. Sabom’s veracity nor do I intend to claim that he is wrong. However, you have not provided a single example of a “peer reviewed” case and your continued posting of that claim without ever bothering to provide any evidence is simply distracting to the discussion that is going on here. Disingenuously citing [your own websiite](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=72) to make an unsupported claim is not appropriate behavior in this Forum. Provide actual citations from peer reviewed studies from Drs. Sabom, Van Lommel, and Ring that actually describe what you claim for them, (as opposed to the timeline I outlined above), or refrain from interrupting these threads with your witnessing and stick to your own threads. **Everyone else** : these claims are a hijack of this thread and any further discussion of NDE/OBE matters will be removed from this thread. NDE/OBE claims are a legitimate topic to discuss, but it is not appropriate to allow _this_ discussion to get derailed by one more tangent onto the personal beliefs of a single poster who resolutely declines to discuss the topic in an honest fashion. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] Tom, we do have evidence that the OBE occurred between points B and C because the events described by the patient were events that happened between B and C. This is/was verified by the doctor present at the time it happened. If the OBE had occurred earlier then the patient would not have seen them because they wouldn’t have happened yet. If the OBE occurred between C and D the patient again would not have been able to describe the events because they were done before. And these research events would be nothing extraordinary, nothing to publish. This thread is about science testing spiritual events which this is a part of and is not a hijack. I really don’t know why the extreme anger and hatred directed toward me. Perhaps an administrator could help here. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/13 "2008-03-30T21:12:06Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Tom, we do have evidence that the OBE occurred between points B and C because the events described by the patient were events that happened between B and C. This is/was verified by the doctor present at the time it happened. [/QUOTE] You have made this claim on numerous occasions without ever presenting a citation to a single instance in which it is supposed to have occurred. It has not been established in the case of Pam Reynolds. It has not been established in the cvase of the ER nurse who related her personal impressions of an event and it has never been established in any otrher venue that you have provided. It might even be true and I really do not care what your beliefs are, but if you are going to drop that highly contestable (and never supported) contention into a thread as evidence of your position without providing the evidence, you are doing nothing but initiating a hijack by witnessing. Knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/14 "2008-03-30T21:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] You have made this claim on numerous occasions without ever presenting a citation to a single instance in which it is supposed to have occurred. It has not been established in the case of Pam Reynolds. It has not been established in the cvase of the ER nurse who related her personal impressions of an event and it has never been established in any otrher venue that you have provided. It might even be true and I really do not care what your beliefs are, but if you are going to drop that highly contestable (and never supported) contention into a thread as evidence of your position without providing the evidence, you are doing nothing but initiating a hijack by witnessing. Knock it off. [/QUOTE] This research would have never seen the light of day if the evidence were not there. It was extablished in the Pam Reynolds case as with multiple others. These are not just my personal beliefs but the findings of research. The evidence is there, and witnessing is allowed. But I am not witnessing, I am presenting research by prominent doctors. > [@](#): > > Dr. Sam Parnia, senior research fellow at the University of Southampton, and Dr. Peter Fenwick, a consultant neuropsychiatrist at Oxford University, are both highly respected researchers. > > Both believe that near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences involving the clinically dead cannot be explained by traditional science. > > Near-death experiences are the most common experience and include seeing a white light, while out-of-body experiences involve serenely observing one’s dead body while medics work frantically to resuscitate it. The researchers have founded a charitable trust, Horizon Research, to promote studies in the field. > > Last year Parnia published a study indicating that 10 percent of clinically dead patients who were later resuscitated reported memories while they were lifeless. > > Evidence includes patients recognizing hospital staff they had never met but who helped during their resuscitation. Others have recalled conversations between doctors. [http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2002/10/55826](http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2002/10/55826) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/15 "2008-04-01T06:01:02Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] It was extablished in the Pam Reynolds case as with multiple others. [/QUOTE] It has NOT been established in the case of Pam Reynolds (or anywhere else). Either stop posting that claim or provide a genuine citation for it from Sabom or someone else. There is no reason to believe that the stuff that Ms. Reynolds believes she experienced could not have occurred either prior to or subsequent to her period of flat-line brain recordings. Before you post that, again, provide the actual evidence. If you cannot do that, then you will be ruled out of line. (And I would advise you to post it in a new thread so as to not violate my injunction to take this hijack out of this thread.) [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/16 "2008-04-01T13:33:04Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] It has NOT been established in the case of Pam Reynolds (or anywhere else). Either stop posting that claim or provide a genuine citation for it from Sabom or someone else. There is no reason to believe that the stuff that Ms. Reynolds believes she experienced could not have occurred either prior to or subsequent to her period of flat-line brain recordings. Before you post that, again, provide the actual evidence. If you cannot do that, then you will be ruled out of line. (And I would advise you to post it in a new thread so as to not violate my injunction to take this hijack out of this thread.) [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] > **[nidsci.org](http://www.nidsci.org/articles/bestevidence.php)** > > This domain may be for sale! > [@](#): > > In 1991 Pam Reynolds underwent brain surgery during which she was put into full hypothermic cardiac arrest. Her vital signs were carefully monitored including cessation of heartbeat, draining of all blood from the brain, no cortical brain activity, and her core body temperature was dropped to 60 degrees. By all known standards Pam Reynolds was clinically dead and remained that way for many minutes. Yet she was revived and continues to live a healthy life. > > While her physical death was assured, what Pam Reynolds reported was equally important. Most of the experience she had during her operation is subjective. However, like a few other NDEers, she provided information about what happened to her in the operating room that was corroborated by technical witnesses. Although she previously did not have specific information about the procedures that were performed on her, she provided detailed descriptions that were later substantiated. She also reported being in an out-of-body state and proceeding through a tunnel of light. During her visitation she claims that she had the opportunity to meet with relatives she knew to have been deceased. While that aspect may be subjective, it receives strong inferential support given her objective clinical condition at the time. [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html) > [@](#): > > It allowed Pam’s aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed “standstill” by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam’s body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. This case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead. > [@](#): > > When all of Pam’s vital signs were stopped, the doctor turned on a surgical saw and began to cut through Pam’s skull. While this was going on, Pam reported that she felt herself “pop” outside her body and hover above the operating table. Then she watched the doctors working on her lifeless body for awhile. From her out-of-body position, she observed the doctor sawing into her skull with what looked to her like an electric toothbrush. Pam heard and reported later what the nurses in the operating room had said and exactly what was happening during the operation. At this time, every monitor attached to Pam’s body registered “no life” whatsoever. At some point, Pam’s consciousness floated out of the operating room and traveled down a tunnel which had a light at the end of it where her deceased relatives and friends were waiting including her long-dead grandmother. Pam’s NDE ended when her deceased uncle led her back to her body for her to reentered it. [Pam Reynolds case - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds)’\_NDE > [@](#): > > Pam Reynolds (stage name) from Atlanta, Georgia is an American singer-songwriter. In 1991, at the age of 35, she had a near-death experience (NDE) during a brain operation. Her NDE is one of the most notable and best documented in NDE research because of the unusual circumstances under which it happened. Reynolds was under close medical monitoring during the entire operation. During part of the operation she had no brain-wave activity and no blood flowing in her brain, which left her clinically dead. She made several observations about the procedure which later were confirmed by medical personnel as surprisingly accurate. Yes, there is a timeline in this article, believing the timeline is tantamount to believing someone was reading Pam thoughts while she was lying dead on the table, completely impossible, only Pam knew what the timeline might be. This supposed timeline can’t be believed by any logical thinking person. Even after saying all this the timeline does not refute Pam’s NDE. Furthermore the surgeon performing the operation announced on national TV Pam was dead when the procedures were performed. [http://www.ianlawton.com/nde2.htm](http://www.ianlawton.com/nde2.htm) > [@](#): > > But this particular case has generated so much controversy that, since the book was published, I have come across various websites in which a number of sceptics have, for once, examined it closely (for example, Gerald Woerlee). In particular they suggest that Pam could still have heard conversations or music through the speaker-plugs in her ears – which were fitted to emit a regular pulse to check on her brainstem reaction – especially if her levels of anaesthetic were low at that point. On the face of it this may be a valid assertion, particularly given that these parts of the experience occurred when she was not clinically brain-dead.\* > > However, most crucially of all - and maintaining their typical selectiveness - none of them has even tried to explain how she was able to “see” the saw used to open up her skull. Remember that this had an unusual design that a non-expert could not be expected to guess at, and that Pam also described its accompanying “interchangeable blades” in a “socket-wrench case”. Remember too that her eyes were firmly closed, lubricated and taped shut throughout the operation, and that the saw was being used on the top of her head, which would in any case have been out of range of her normal eyesight. > > In my view, therefore, Pam’s experience continues to provide highly convincing evidence for the independence of consciousness from the physical brain. I could continue to list them, there are a lot more. Please leave me alone, or read the material. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/17 "2008-04-01T14:38:07Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I could continue to list them, there are a lot more. Please leave me alone, or read the material. [/QUOTE] No. You leave us alone with your refusal to even read what I or anyone else has posted. Go back to the Wikipedia article, for example. [Timeline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds'_NDE#Timeline) Note that her “dead” period lasted no more than 25 minutes and that there is no event that is remembered by her during that period. All the claims for her death do not address the specific aspect of whether any of her memories were recorded during that 25 minute period. To say otherwise (barring actual citations) is to ignore reality or to lie about it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/18 "2008-04-01T15:16:11Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] No. You leave us alone with your refusal to even read what I or anyone else has posted. Go back to the Wikipedia article, for example. [Timeline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds'_NDE#Timeline) Note that her “dead” period lasted no more than 25 minutes and that there is no event that is remembered by her during that period. All the claims for her death do not address the specific aspect of whether any of her memories were recorded during that 25 minute period. To say otherwise (barring actual citations) is to ignore reality or to lie about it. [/QUOTE] I told you Tom that timeline is false, no one could read her mind while she was out of her body and she did not validate it, I know, I asked her. I can put you in touch with her if you wish and she agrees. Tell me how someone would know the exact time she was having a certain experience while she was dead. It is a bunch of hooey. I think that is understandable to most people. [http://www.mortalminds.woerlee.org/reynolds.html](http://www.mortalminds.woerlee.org/reynolds.html) Maybe this will help ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/19 "2008-04-01T15:58:30Z")
A quote from the timeline when you believe she was still conscious: > [@](#): > > Reynolds’ NDE begins. She hears a natural D. It feels like the sound pulls her out of her body. She looks down and sees several things in the operating room. She feels very aware and her vision is more focused and clearer than normal. She notices that her head is shaved in another way than she expected. She sees the ‘saw thing’ (bone saw). It looks like an electric toothbrush, has a dent or groove at the top where the saw connects to the handle and it has interchangeable blades which are placed in what looks like a socket wrench case. She hears the saw crank up, but doesn’t see where it is being used on. It hums at a relatively high pitch and then suddenly goes ‘Brrrrrrrr’. Now how could she “see” the saw behind her head without getting up and turning around, she was out of body at this time and observing the operation. She saw the operation as well as heard it. This proves what you are saying is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/20 "2008-04-04T20:34:50Z")
to **begbert2** While you may not be convinced that OBE’s are not real, many researchers are convinced they are real. They were convinced by the accurate accounts of the experiencers. As one who has been out of body I assure you it is very real and there are millions of examples of it on the Internet. This experience alone is enough to establish a non-local consciousness. [http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html](http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=2)