# lekatt's recent hijacks (removed from original threads) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686 "2008-03-29T02:00:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/201 "2008-04-19T18:37:29Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] In Texas where the 400+ children were taken from their parents and their lives totally disrupted, not one word of hate or anger has been expressed the parents. That is true spirituality, no desire to hurt, or fear anyone anymore exists in those people. [/QUOTE] Are you speaking of the polygamy cult where pubescent teens were forcibly married to men three times their age who mistreated them and brainwashed into thinking god would hate them if they tried to escape and live their own lives? Please tell me you don’t consider these people to be truly spiritual just because they’re not making overt shows of anger in front of the camera. They have learned to avoid using language of outright hostility as a convenient way of deflecting charges of the same. Many religious wrap their hostility in language of peace and love, and then go on to do the opposite. It’s a very clever tactic. In fact I find it very telling that you find their behavior something to emulate. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/202 "2008-04-19T18:40:21Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] I don’t consider you a dullard. I simply misunderstood you. [/QUOTE] No harm, no foul. I don’t consider myself one either although admiditedly I don’t posses any thing further than a high school education. It is that I took her comment as another attempt to cast aspersions on **lekatt** s character in general and in fact I have seen her chastised on many occasions for doing things of a similar nature. I have never taken part in these attacks of her by other posters although it now becomes a bit more clear how these attacks might get thier fuel. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/203 "2008-04-19T18:50:03Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] My search is weak today. But **Lekatt** has made posts to the SDMB claiming the heart attack. **Lekatt** , do you still claim that you had a near fatal heart attack the night of your NDE? [/QUOTE] What claim are you talking about, where is it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/204 "2008-04-19T18:50:07Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] His talking about NDE, claiming it to be a fact, amounts to the same thing as far as I can tell. And you and others treat it in the same fashion as you do to claims of faith, belief in God or gods etc. [/QUOTE] Please note that it is not his claims for NDEs and OBEs that cause a problem. He has on numerous occasions claimed that such NDEs have been verified by science, yet the few rare links he posts are to anecdotes, not scientific examination. He has repeatedly claimed that “science” tries to deny spirituality, yet he has never provided evidence for that claim. (He has occasionally provided quotations from individual scientists who have expressed a lack of belief, but when he has been provided other citations to different scientists who are believers, he simply goes back to repeating that “science” is opposed to spirituality.) He can believe what he wants. When he makes a claim for a factual event and is asked for a citation, he never provides it. That is not the same thing as simply being criticized for his beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/205 "2008-04-19T18:52:24Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief] Are you speaking of the polygamy cult where pubescent teens were forcibly married to men three times their age who mistreated them and brainwashed into thinking god would hate them if they tried to escape and live their own lives? Please tell me you don’t consider these people to be truly spiritual just because they’re not making overt shows of anger in front of the camera. They have learned to avoid using language of outright hostility as a convenient way of deflecting charges of the same. Many religious wrap their hostility in language of peace and love, and then go on to do the opposite. It’s a very clever tactic. In fact I find it very telling that you find their behavior something to emulate. [/QUOTE] There is no proof of anything you say about them yet, might want to wait and see if some surfaces, remember it is facts that count. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/206 "2008-04-19T18:54:51Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] From his own website, in his own words:He went to bed with a troubled mind. He thought he had awoken in the middle of the night, and a mysterious voice tells hm to go back to sleep. He eventually does, and the “vision” continues. No NDE. [/QUOTE] I can’t find what you say anywere in what I wrote, why is that? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/207 "2008-04-19T18:58:48Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Please note that it is not his claims for NDEs and OBEs that cause a problem. He has on numerous occasions claimed that such NDEs have been verified by science, yet the few rare links he posts are to anecdotes, not scientific examination. He has repeatedly claimed that “science” tries to deny spirituality, yet he has never provided evidence for that claim. (He has occasionally provided quotations from individual scientists who have expressed a lack of belief, but when he has been provided other citations to different scientists who are believers, he simply goes back to repeating that “science” is opposed to spirituality.) He can believe what he wants. When he makes a claim for a factual event and is asked for a citation, he never provides it. That is not the same thing as simply being criticized for his beliefs. [/QUOTE] My posts are full of cites, you know that. Many of those cites are research done by qualified researchers at qualified Universities, and published in Scientific Journals. I can’t help it if people don’t read them or worse say they are not what they really are. Would you like to go through some of them now? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/208 "2008-04-19T19:02:07Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] What claim are you talking about, where is it? [/QUOTE] In previous posts, you have claimed to have had a heart attack the night of your NDE. Did you or did you not have a heart attack that night? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/209 "2008-04-19T19:09:31Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] What claim are you talking about, where is it? [/QUOTE] What did you almost die of that night, **lekatt**? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/210 "2008-04-19T19:49:16Z")
::: sigh ::: I have no idea whether there was a heart attack connected with the claim for an NDE. Following is what I have found. [ol][li] **lekatt** was having a rough time, physically and economically.[/li][li]His doctor warned him of a need for cardiac surgery that lekatt put off.[/li][li]Subsequent to his doctor’s recommendation for surgery, **lekatt** had an experience one night that he interpreted as an NDE.[/ol][/li]At some point **lekatt** had a heart attack, but I have found no statement from him that linked the date of the heart attack to the date of the NDE. In fact, in two posts he appears to treat them as separate instances. Two possibilities occur to me: (1) that **lekatt** claimed a heart attack in a thread or post that has been lost or (2) his separate references to heart disease and to a heart attack have been conflated in the minds of other posters. I have no idea which is true, but I would strongly suggest that anyone wishing to pursue the “self-diagnosis” idea provide evidence or drop the subject. It is not proper to demand citations from **lekatt** for specific claims while failing to provide similar citations to specific claims. This does not mean that his self-described NDE that has all the characteristics of a simple dream is off limits any more than his persistent claims to have provided scientific citations when he has never provided anything more than anecdotes is off limits. But without evidence that his heart attack was “self-diagnosed” or concurrent with his purported NDE, that topic is now a dead issue. The following links provide circumstantial evidence for the idea that they might have been linked. I do not know or care. [Web site:](http://www.aleroy.com/Person.htm) > [@](#): > > In the early 80’s things started to come apart. The Oil Industry Bust, Desktop Publishing and a general downturn in business made profitability impossible. Tried to hang onto my business for a while believing things would get better. They got worse. This period of working longer hours for less money caused a deterioration of health and in 1987 I was diagnosed as having severe heart disease. > > The Heart Specialist recommended surgery with a warning that I might live only 6 more months without it. But, I opted to wait and see if it would improve with a program of diet, and mild exercise. After about two months of trying this cure with minimal results I had an experience that changed my life forever. > > That experience, a NDE (Near Death Experience), is really what this website is about. After the NDE, I regained my health and sold my business. The experience changed my personality and outlook on life forever. I became intensely interested in metaphysics, and in reading other’s NDEs. [SDMB post:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4990243#post4990243) > [@](#): > > “In the early 80’s things started to come apart. The Oil Industry Bust, Desktop Publishing and a general downturn in business made profitability impossible. Tried to hang on to my business for a while believing things would get better. They got worse. This period of working longer hours for less money caused a deterioration of health and in 1987 I was diagnosed as having severe heart disease.” > > ## “The Heart Specialist recommended surgery with a warning that I might live only 6 more months without it. But, I opted to wait and see if it would improve with a program of diet, and mild exercise. After about two months of trying this cure with minimal results I had an experience that changed my life forever.” > > I actually had a heart attack on Jan. 1, 1987. As I said above the doctor told me I wouldn’t live six months without surgery. I didn’t have sufficient insurance, very tight with money. So I said no. Not wanting to burden my family with bills if I died. > I was going regularly to the doctor at the time of my NDE. [SDMB post:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8422266#post8422266) > [@](#): > > I was agnostic, reading my books, running my business, until the bust of '80. My business nosedived along with my health, and I had a heart attack. The doc wanted to operate giving about six months to live. I declined the operation, and started reading about getting healthy. Deepak Chopra became my hero. Soon after that I had a near death experience. Totally, and completely changed my life forever, been studying NDEs, and related spiritual material for over 20 years. [SDMB post:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8994776#post8994776) > [@](#): > > I remember when I had my heart attack, my wife was crying and the doctor left the room so her could compose herself. So much for personal care. [Web site:](http://aleroy.com/Ndee.htm) > [@](#): > > # my NDE, quick to read. > > # I had a bad day. I was depressed about my health, business and everything else that came to mind so I went to bed early, thinking the sleep would help me forget. I was wrong. > > About 2:00 a.m. I awoke feeling very strange. I couldn’t see anything, but felt an energy or electric-like current running all through me. Also felt someone close to my right shoulder. I thought this was my wife, but soon determined the bed, with my wife in it, was far below me, and to my left. Wanting to find out who this presence was at my shoulder I tried to turn around. A voice said: “Please go back to sleep.” It was a male voice that seemed to originate within my thoughts or mind. > I wasn’t afraid, and I still wanted to know what was happening, so, I tried to turn again. The voice said: “Do you wish to continue here or would you like to go on?” After considering this question only a few seconds, I replied: “I want to continue, of course.” My reply was given as a thought. > > As soon as I had answered, the energy surrounding me began to grow in intensity. The stronger it became the more I felt loved and supported by it. I became aware of (or remembered) my spiritual nature, and also, my purpose for being here. (I felt as if I had always known these things, but had somehow forgotten them.) I further knew that all people share this love and support. That everyone is held safe and secure and loved unconditionally by the Creator. > > The intense energy lasted about 15 minutes (estimate). During this time, I felt total love, support, belonging, and an expanded knowledge of many things. I never wanted to leave this beautiful state of being; but finally the energy subsided and the voice said: “Please go back to sleep.” In the next moment, I was back in bed, with my wife next to me. The adventure, however, was far from over. > > In the months following, the energy remained, though not as intense. I had many lucid/out-of-body dreams (dreams where you are aware of, and active in, the dream state) teaching me how to overcome my limitations and fears. My health improved, in about 18 months I was released from all medical care. In another 18 months, my business was sold and I found employment. Life was looking good again. ETA (and repeat) as Moderator: Without evidence that his heart attack was “self-diagnosed” or concurrent with his purported NDE, that topic is now a dead issue in Great Debates. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/211 "2008-04-19T19:53:28Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] My posts are full of cites, you know that. Many of those cites are research done by qualified researchers at qualified Universities, and published in Scientific Journals. I can’t help it if people don’t read them or worse say they are not what they really are. Would you like to go through some of them now? [/QUOTE] I would love to have you go through any of them and demonstrate that they were scientific studies and not merely anecdotes. A story told by a doctor is no less an anecdote just because the author went to medical school. That is why there are actual protocols and procedures established for conducting scientific research: no person is immune to misinterpretation of events when relying purely on personal memory. You have never provided a citation to a scientific study that actually attempted to ascertain an NDE or OBE event. You have a handful of questionaires and a few personal reminiscences, but no studies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/212 "2008-04-19T20:24:10Z")
If thinking that he had a heart attack because he mentioned heart attacks and heart disease many times when talking about his NDE is a mistake, I apologize, although I thought I remembered him claiming such in the past. This is certainly something **lekatt** could clear up once and for all in a single post, if he could tell us what it was exactly he was dying of the night of his NDE. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/213 "2008-04-19T20:44:49Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] There is no proof of anything you say about them yet, might want to wait and see if some surfaces, remember it is facts that count. [/QUOTE] Oh, there’s plenty of proof, there just hasn’t been a trial yet. All the proof will come out in the trial, as it has for these sicko polygamists in the past. So when the proof comes out, as it always does, will you still hold these reprobates up as examples of purely spiritual people because their hostility is in their behavior instead of in their words? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/214 "2008-04-19T21:24:51Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief] Oh, there’s plenty of proof, there just hasn’t been a trial yet. All the proof will come out in the trial, as it has for these sicko polygamists in the past. So when the proof comes out, as it always does, will you still hold these reprobates up as examples of purely spiritual people because their hostility is in their behavior instead of in their words? [/QUOTE] Please cite the proof. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/215 "2008-04-19T21:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Please cite the proof. [/QUOTE] You first, please: > [@lekatt](#): > > Also there have been experimental surgeries where the blood has been drained from the patients head for a number of minutes and the patient could still see the whole operation. . And if you wouldn’t mind, could you please tell us what you were dying of the night of your NDE? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/216 "2008-04-19T22:51:39Z")
I’d suggest that anyone who wants to study the issue in a reasonably objective manner should start with [The Journal of Near-Death Studies](http://www.iands.org/pubs/jnds/). Abstracts only at the site: yearly subscription starts at $30 US, don’t know why there hasn’t been an issue in a year tho. I’ll note that there was one article in the last issue criticizing aspects of Pam Reynolds’ NDE, which according to the followup abstracts contained several errors. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/217 "2008-04-19T23:06:38Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] I’m sorry to hear of you grandmothers condition. I hope that she is up and feeling well soon. I don’t, however, understand your comment about **lekatt** s experience as being a dream. That seems a bit on the distasteful side to me. [/QUOTE] Thank you. She’s almost 90, but she’s tough. As for it being a dream, again, what **DocCathode** said. He says nothing about dying-just that he fell asleep and he encountered a “presence” or whatever. Now, if those are his beliefs-fine. If that helped him cope with his despression, that’s wonderful. His attitude, however, his arrogance, and the way he seems to look down on us, calling us “close-minded” and such, are what REALLY need work. **FinnAgain** , you just need to change the search to “any date”. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/218 "2008-04-20T02:10:36Z")
This is about a study on NDEs, a skeptical article, and a reply. The study was published in the Lancet, see the footnotes. [http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel\_skeptic\_response.htm](http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm) Just something to begin with the about is. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/219 "2008-04-20T02:20:23Z")
**Lekatt** If you don’t believe in Hercolubus, do you believe Rabolu had genuine OBEs? If not, why not? If his OBE’s were genuine, how do you explain his getting false information? Again, did you have a heart attack the night of your NDE? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/220 "2008-04-20T02:29:00Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] This is about a study on NDEs, a skeptical article, and a reply. The study was published in the Lancet, see the footnotes. [http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel\_skeptic\_response.htm](http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm) Just something to begin with the about is. [/QUOTE] What an interesting essay. I find it deeply flawed throughout, but it’s definitely interesting. . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=12)