# lekatt's recent hijacks (removed from original threads) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686 "2008-03-29T02:00:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/221 "2008-04-20T02:42:57Z")
[QUOTE=andros] What an interesting essay. I find it deeply flawed throughout, but it’s definitely interesting. . [/QUOTE] It was about a scientific study of near death experiences, not an essay. Why do you misrepresent it, why would it not be important to call it what it really is? Perhaps you could tell us why you believe it to be flawed, and I could put you in touch with the good doctor to discuss it. > [@](#): > > Only recently someone showed me the “Skeptic” article\* by Michael Shermer. From a well respected and, in my opinion, scientific journal like the Scientific American I always expect a well documented and scientific article, and I don’t know how thoroughly peer-reviewed the article from Shermer was by the editorial staff before publication. \*\*My reaction to this article by Shermer is because I am the main author of the study published in The Lancet, December 2001, entitled: “Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest; a prospective study in the Netherlands”. \*\* About what he writes about the conclusions from our study, as well as from the effect of magnetic and electrical “stimulation” of the brain, forces me to write this paper, because I disagree with his theories as well as with his conclusions. > So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/222 "2008-04-20T02:49:45Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] **Lekatt** If you don’t believe in Hercolubus, do you believe Rabolu had genuine OBEs? If not, why not? If his OBE’s were genuine, how do you explain his getting false information? Again, did you have a heart attack the night of your NDE? [/QUOTE] I just don’t have the answer to everything you ask, I wrote what I experienced, it was misquoted on purpose in my belief, I am not sure why. The truth will always win in the end. I answered your question many times. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/223 "2008-04-20T02:51:53Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I answered your question many times. [/QUOTE] If you have, show them to me. I have not seen you answer my question. Did you have a heart attack the night of your NDE? A simple yes or no will do. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/224 "2008-04-20T03:00:55Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] It was about a scientific study of near death experiences, not an essay. Why do you misrepresent it, why would it not be important to call it what it really is? [/QUOTE] He did not misrewpresent it and he did call it what it was: it was an essay written in response to a different essay that criticized erarlier statements he had made. It was not a scientific paper and any claim that it was a scientific paper would be false. As to the “scentific study” that prompted the exchange of _essays_ between Shermer and van Lommel, it would most reasonably be considered a series of interviews seeking information, but all it was capable of producing was a series of interesting, perhaps even provocative, impressions of unsubstantiated memories. Those are, by definition, anecdotes. They provide tantalizing glimpses into the working of the brain following trauma, but they do not establish any evidence for the claims made by van Lommel or, earlier, Sabom. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/225 "2008-04-20T06:00:53Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] He did not misrewpresent it and he did call it what it was: it was an essay written in response to a different essay that criticized erarlier statements he had made. It was not a scientific paper and any claim that it was a scientific paper would be false. As to the “scentific study” that prompted the exchange of _essays_ between Shermer and van Lommel, it would most reasonably be considered a series of interviews seeking information, but all it was capable of producing was a series of interesting, perhaps even provocative, impressions of unsubstantiated memories. Those are, by definition, anecdotes. They provide tantalizing glimpses into the working of the brain following trauma, but they do not establish any evidence for the claims made by van Lommel or, earlier, Sabom. [/QUOTE] This is not a series of interviews, it was substantiated, verified, evidence of a patient telling what happened while they were clinically dead. Now, if everything that comes out of the mouth of a person is anecdotal as you seem to think then there is nothing but anecdotal evidence of all studies and nothing, no matter how rigerously it follows the scientific method is null and void. It would be impossible to match your criteria. But that does not change the facts in the least. You are impossible. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/226 "2008-04-20T06:08:16Z")
Some more information of studies of NDEs. > **[Question 28 about Near Death Experiences.](https://aleroy.com/FAQz28.htm)** > > Question 28 about Near Death Experiences. > [@](#): > > Interestingly, there have in fact been Successful Experiments in actually testing Veridical NDEs… > –Many doctors, nurses, medical staff, paramedics, and family members have been interviewed by NDE Researchers to obtain cross-referenced verifiable information between the stories of the patients concerning their Veridical NDEs and the cross-referenced experiences of the medical staff involved with them. > –Dr. Michael Sabom did a study on over 57 cardiac patients who had clinically died and were brought back, 32 of whom had experienced Veridical OBEs and had described in great detail their own resusitations during cardiac arrest, and 25 of whom had not experienced an OBE during their cardiac arrest. He had two groups, the experiencers who saw in their OBEs and the non-experiencers who did not, describe their resusitations. To his suprise, 80% of the non-experiencers made serious mistakes. On the other hand, all of the experiencers did not make a single mistake. > > According to PMH Atwater in her book “The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences” regarding Dr. Michael Sabom’s Research Study… > “Experiencers even correctly detailed readings on medical machines that were not in their line of vision, and described other circumstances they should not otherwise have been able to know.” > > –Dr. Pim Van Lommel did a more indepth study with 344 cardiac patients independently of Dr. Michael Sabom with similar results. They made sure that their subjects could be verified as flatlined during the experiences. > –Dr. Kenneth Ring did a study on Veridical NDEs of 31 persons who were born blind and found that they could veridically “see” events while their OBE unfolded the same way sighted people’s do. > > I’d like to add that Dr. Michael Sabom and Dr. Pim Van Lommel and Dr. Kenneth Ring’s Research were published in PEER REVIEWED Science Journals. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/227 "2008-04-20T06:21:15Z")
More studies taking place. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/news/2002/09/27/near-death.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/news/2002/09/27/near-death.shtml) > [@](#): > > Nick Watson, a PhD student at York St John College, will be interviewing prominent scientific and religious figures, including the Archbishop of York Dr David Hope. > > Serious study > > The serious study of Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) did not start until the mid 1960s when medical science allowed for humans to be resuscitated from what was defined as clinical death. > > During the last three decades the study of NDEs has gained momentum, with numerous eminent medical doctors, professors and scientists investigating the phenomena. > > Nick Watson says he’s keen to talk to anyone who has had a Near-death Experience. > > "Previous research has shown that race, gender, age, social class and education does not effect who has these experiences. > > “I am keen to offer people an understanding and receptive environment in which to talk openly about their experience.” > > Not uncommon > > The experience isn’t terribly common, but it isn’t rare either. Around 40% or people who come close to death may later report an NDE. > > It’s been suggested that the figure may be higher as some people may not report an NDE for fear of being ridiculed. > > There are a number of common features of nearly all NDEs. These may include an out of body experience in which the individual can view their physical body from above. > > Moving through a dark space or tunnel normally towards a bright light and meeting deceased relatives or religious leaders are all well documented. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/228 "2008-04-20T06:25:59Z")
One of my favorite authors whose book on healing helped me through the dark days of my illness. A really great man. [http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-10/2006-10-26-voa52.cfm?CFID=287518179&CFTOKEN=21504638](http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-10/2006-10-26-voa52.cfm?CFID=287518179&CFTOKEN=21504638) > [@](#): > > Indian American author and medical doctor Deepak Chopra has made a career of answering some of life’s hardest questions. His latest book:Life After Death: The Burden of Proof takes readers on a journey to the afterlife. > > Deepak Chopra has no doubts about the afterlife. “The idea that we have a fixed body locked in space and time is a mirage,” he says. In Life After Death he writes: “Life’s ultimate purpose is to discover who you are. After death, we see more clearly the goals to be attained.” > > “We are the potential for memory, imagination, thought, feeling, emotions, desires, instincts, [and] drives,” he says. “This is who we are and this is what projects as a mind, which then projects as a body, which then projects as the world.” > > Chopra talks about the soul, not as a thing, but as a process. “It is a continuum,” he explains. “It is a dynamic, constantly evolving bundle in consciousness.” And he says that ever-evolving soul is very much a part of life. > “You get in touch with it when you are intoxicated with love. You get in touch with it when you have a peak experience. You get in touch with it in the stillness of meditation. You get in touch with it when you do selfless service, like a Mother Theresa. So there are many ways. Being, thinking, feeling and doing can all allow you to get in touch with your soul.” ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/229 "2008-04-20T11:50:07Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Thanks for your kind post. I know my experiences were real because I have been able to duplicate them for myself many times. You may believe what you will, just as I will believe what I experienced. [/QUOTE] Because you can duplicate them at will,it sounds like self hypnosis to me. But no matter what your experiences are,if they are good for you then I am glad they help you. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/230 "2008-04-20T11:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I believe you have some very good points. I agree psychology is pseudo-science, and I was a psychology major in college. They only test behaviour, and each individual is unique in behaviour. The fact that scientists tend to dismiss spiritual phenomenon out of hand is not right. But some scientists are investigating spiritual themes, especially in near death experiences. There is a growing consenses that consciousness does continue to live after the death of the body. I will leave a link to a story about such research, there are more. [http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb334515.htm](http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb334515.htm) It would be nice if it was not met with contempt prior to investigation. [/QUOTE] The fact that scientists investigate spiritual themes doesn’t mean they buy into it, either emotionally or scientifically. As scientists, their job requires them to investigate stuff. That doesn’t mean there is some “evidence” that a handful of people have a handle on that the most respected members of the scientific community just can’t grasp. Any scientist who ignores evidence in favor of emotions really isn’t a scientist at all. But you knew that… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/231 "2008-04-20T15:37:06Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] This is not a series of interviews, it was substantiated, verified, evidence of a patient telling what happened while they were clinically dead. Now, if everything that comes out of the mouth of a person is anecdotal as you seem to think then there is nothing but anecdotal evidence of all studies and nothing, no matter how rigerously it follows the scientific method is null and void. It would be impossible to match your criteria. But that does not change the facts in the least. [/QUOTE] Despite all your claims about your knowledge about science, this statement pretty clearly indicates that you have never grasped the meaning of scientific methodology. Your first sentence should read _This was a series of interviews of patients describing their memories of events that happened before, possibly during, and after they were clinically dead_. As such, they provide strong evidence that the brain (and its memory) might be affected in particular ways by a “death” experience (although for only 18% of the respondents surveyed). That means that the interviews do, indeed, provide a motivation for someone to set up an actual series of experiments. Memory is malleable. The interviews were not conducted while the patients were in step-down with no possibility that their memories could be affected by conversations with medical staff or family and friends. Any number of “events” that they purportedly “saw” could have entered their memories as recreated events\* based on what they heard before and after the “death” event–particularly conversations among the operating team–or by tales related to them by staff or friends after the operation.\*\* I am not denigrating the interviews. I am pointing out that the information gathered in those interviews should suggest that van Lommel or Sabom or any of their fellows who wish to conduct science should set up a rigorous scientific experiment–preferably a double blind test where no information could “leak” to the subjects. For example, if an OBE always or usually occurs with the patient looking down on the operation from above, a simple test would be to provide a whiteboard or a computer monitor that is suspended above the operating table on which are displayed different words or shapes. The words or shapes would be set there by an investigator who had no contact with the surgical staff so that there would be no way to pass the information from the investigator to the team to the patient. Then, after some number of reported OBEs, the investigator could examine how many people who claimed an OBE actually saw what was on the monitor or whiteboard. Yet, 20+ years after Sabom and van Lommel have begun publishing their beliefs, no one has ever bothered to do the science to check out their claims. - Years after the Watergate investigation had come out as a movie, someone discovered that Woodward and Bernstein always pictured their editor as a blond man, even though they had worked for their dark-headed editor for years. Apparently, seeing Jason Robards playing the role of their editor in the movie actually changed their memories of their actual boss. Memory is malleable. \*\* Much is made of Pam Reynolds’s description of the skull saw, yet her description is general enough to describe any Dremel or similar rotating saw–the sort of saw that one would expect to use to do fine cutting in an operating room environment. In addition, while neither Reynolds nor Sabom remember showing her the saw between their first interviews and his later recording of her statement, we have only their fallible memories that the saw was not shown to her (before or **after** ) the surgery. There was a long, drawn out battle on the SDMB over a supposed urban legend for a ribald comment that was supposed to have been broadcast nationally on a TV game show. One of the key points of “evidence” was that the show’s host never remembered the (pretty unforgettable) remark. Eventually, after years of being treated as an urban legend, someone actually found a tape of the show on which the remark had been made. The remark on the tape was not identical to the one that had been repeated in the UL, but it was close enough to have clearly been the sourse of the story. So you have a human memory (mistaken as to exact words) that an event occurered balanced against a human memory that a particular event had never occurred. Without actual investigation, with standards and protocols to avoid the contamination of memory, you have nothing but anecdotes, not science. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/232 "2008-04-20T16:19:18Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] The fact that scientists investigate spiritual themes doesn’t mean they buy into it, either emotionally or scientifically. As scientists, their job requires them to investigate stuff. That doesn’t mean there is some “evidence” that a handful of people have a handle on that the most respected members of the scientific community just can’t grasp. Any scientist who ignores evidence in favor of emotions really isn’t a scientist at all. But you knew that… [/QUOTE] What you say is true, but it is also true that any new evidence can take years for the scientific community to accept. Einstein’s relativity theory is an example. That cholestrol was involved in heart attacks was another that took years. There are many examples. Scientists are human as everyone else and hard to convince of anything. That consciousness is non-local has been proven by thousands of near death experiencers. There is simply no other explanation for the phenomenon. Research is on-going at many Universities at this time. Those who do the research go in as skeptics and become believers as their research unfolds. There will be those who say the research is tainted right up to the finish. One of the main things is current science has no proof of consciousness being a local phenomenon. There is no physical evidence at all. It is even illogical to assume a two pound bunch of cells could produce a human personality. Then there is the surrounding evidence that backs up non-local consciousness such as children’s memory of past lives, death bed visions, out-of-body experiences, pre-birth experiences and other experiences that are also under investigation at the moment by researchers. It all comes together to show sold evidence of life after death. Now I don’t know how long it will take to convince the scientific community but the general public for the most part is convinced now. The items of the near death experience and the out-of-body experiences are compelling and will prove more and more compelling in the future. Time will prove we are spiritual beyond any doubt. Below is a link to a list of studies now finished or in progress. Anyone who actually reads this list will find what I am talking about. [http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html](http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html) We have never had a real discussion of the elements of near death experiences on this board. Most attempts have been hand-waved as not science. Well, I know for sure the researchers won’t give up and neither will I, this information leads to the most profound positive changes possible in our society. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/233 "2008-04-20T16:55:54Z")
Tom I don’t agree with anything you say anymore. We are worlds apart. I will always believe the research is good and solid and will lead to proving a non-local consciousness. I will just agree to disagree with you on all things and leave it at that. No need to waste mine or your time anymore. Love ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/234 "2008-04-20T16:58:08Z")
\*\*Lekatt]/b] Did you have a heart attack the night of your NDE? Do you believe the author of Hercolubus had OBEs? If not, why not? If so, how do you account for his getting false information? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/235 "2008-04-20T17:01:20Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Below is a link to a list of studies now finished or in progress. Anyone who actually reads this list will find what I am talking about. [http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html](http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html) [/QUOTE] You provide 53 links that you now claim are studies. 1. Anonymous anecdote-not a study. 2. Article about possible NDEs-not a study. 3-53. I’m tired of this. All you have done is linked to a bunch of anecdotes, puff pieces and interpretations of supposed studies done elsewhere. 53 links from [the same page](http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html), and not one goes to an actual study. Congratulations, **lekatt** -you’ve managed to be wrong about what your links contain 53 times in a single post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/236 "2008-04-20T17:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] You provide 53 links that you now claim are studies. 1. Anonymous anecdote-not a study. 2. Article about possible NDEs-not a study. 3-53. I’m tired of this. All you have done is linked to a bunch of anecdotes, puff pieces and interpretations of supposed studies done elsewhere. 53 links from [the same page](http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html), and not one goes to an actual study. Congratulations, **lekatt** -you’ve managed to be wrong about what your links contain 53 times in a single post. [/QUOTE] Note: It seems that the post I am referring to now lists only one link, instead of 53 separate links. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/237 "2008-04-20T17:28:20Z")
**Czarcasm** , I went there and saw the 53 links. I followed a few of them, and none of the ones I followed went to anything like peer-reviewed scientific studies. Granted, I just followed half a dozen or so, but the ones I chose were the ones that looked **most** likely to go to peer-reviewed research. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/238 "2008-04-20T17:33:50Z")
Edit: following one link, [I ended up at a secondary link that looked legit](http://www.nidsci.org/articles/whinnery/whinnery_nde.html): > [@](#): > > The psychophysiologic events of the NDE may be at least partially open to experimental investigation in healthy humans and not solely upon clinical happenstance. The need to understand the neurologic states of consciousness, subconsciousness, and unconsciousness, along with the mechanisms that cause the transition between these neurologic states is shared by those investigating NDEs and G-LOC. There are several types of alterations, both physiologic and pathologic, that can disturb the normal state of consciousness. Based on the physiologic insult similarity, it is possible to establish a framework, as shown in Figure 3, for the systematic study of the NDE and for relating NDE research to other psychophysiologic research. > > Loss-of-consciousness episodes of all types appear to have an explainable physiologic basis. They are, therefore, open for scientific investigation. At least the loss-of-consciousness aspect of the NDE, therefore, has a potentially explainable and experimentally explorable basis. It would be odd if the symptoms associated with loss and recovery of consciousness were not part of the NDE. The fact that many of the NDE symptoms are very similar to those resulting from loss and recovery of consciousness suggests that individuals who report their NDEs have provided accurate symptom descriptions. This includes those symptoms beyond the scope of G-LOC experimentation, which are unique to the NDE. This was a link lekatt offered demonstrating that NDEs were a real phenomenon. Well, yes, they are: according to this research, they comprise a glitch in consciousness similar to that experienced by pilots undergoing extreme g-forces. I don’t think that bolsters his case. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/239 "2008-04-20T17:38:41Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Edit: following one link, [I ended up at a secondary link that looked legit](http://www.nidsci.org/articles/whinnery/whinnery_nde.html): This was a link lekatt offered demonstrating that NDEs were a real phenomenon. Well, yes, they are: according to this research, they comprise a glitch in consciousness similar to that experienced by pilots undergoing extreme g-forces. I don’t think that bolsters his case. Daniel [/QUOTE] So out of 53 links, only one is a _secondary_ link that goes to the results of a study(not the actual study itself, it seems), and _that_ one study contradicts **lekatt’s** beliefs about NDEs. Priceless. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/240 "2008-04-20T18:00:42Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] So out of 53 links, only one is a _secondary_ link that goes to the results of a study(not the actual study itself, it seems), and _that_ one study contradicts **lekatt’s** beliefs about NDEs. Priceless. [/QUOTE] To be clear, I followed [item 37’s](http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a37) supporting [link to an internal document](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html). The internal document was full of mumbo-jumbo about how (for example) "quantum theory is allowing new paradigms to take flight " and the like. I moused over various links in that document until I found one that looked like it might lead to a real study: > [@](#): > > Scientific Discoveries Resulting From NDEs > > (1) NDEs are proven to be real events > > Gravitational forces exerted upon fighter pilots in a centrifuge has revolutionized the field of consciousness studies by providing experimental proof that NDEs are real events because they can be replicated in the laboratory. ([Dr. Jim Whinnery](http://www.nidsci.org/articles/whinnery/whinnery_nde.html)) None of the other links I moused over looked remotely like they’d link to anything substantive. Digging three layers deep in a page purportedly full of links to scientific research is as far as I’m willing to go, unfortunately. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=13)