# lekatt's recent hijacks (removed from original threads) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686 "2008-03-29T02:00:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/241 "2008-04-20T18:02:39Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] This is not a series of interviews, it was substantiated, verified, evidence of a patient telling what happened while they were clinically dead. Now, if everything that comes out of the mouth of a person is anecdotal as you seem to think then there is nothing but anecdotal evidence of all studies and nothing, no matter how rigerously it follows the scientific method is null and void. It would be impossible to match your criteria. But that does not change the facts in the least. You are impossible. [/QUOTE] [This is the paper](http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm) you’re alluding to. It seems **tomndebb** is right (though I couldn’t click through to [the commentary](http://www.thelancetadmin.com/journal/vol358/iss9298/full/llan.358.9298.editorial_and_review.18769.1) . The findings are inconclusive, the authors seem to believe there must be some other cause than the physiological to the NDE’s reported, mostly because not enough people report them. Strange spin, though. I’d have thought it would bring NDE’s into question, not support them. However, **lekatt** , for someone whose life mission seems to be focused on spreading the word about NDE, you are strangely reluctant to clear up issues about your own. To wit: 1. You have defined the [beginning of an NDE](http://aleroy.com/Proof.htm) thusly > [@lekatt\_on\_his\_site](#): > > The NDE starts when the body stops 1. You [described your NDE on that same site](http://aleroy.com/Ndee.htm) like this: > [@lekatt\_on\_his\_site](#): > > About 2:00 a.m. I awoke feeling very strange. I couldn’t see anything, but felt an energy or electric-like current running all through me. Also felt someone close to my right shoulder. I thought this was my wife, but soon determined the bed, with my wife in it, was far below me, and to my left. Wanting to find out who this presence was at my shoulder I tried to turn around. A voice said: “Please go back to sleep.” It was a male voice that seemed to originate within my thoughts or mind. > (snip) > In the next moment, I was back in bed, with my wife next to me. The adventure, however, was far from over. There is one element missing, which you yourself seem to believe is essential to an NDE: your body stopping. The question has been repeated, over and over, and on this very thread someone who did have a near death experience questioned your experience: > [@nd\_n8](#): > > Thank you for the link and the background story. From what I read there you describe an OBE instead of NDE. What information do you have to make the association with the NDE instead of the OBE? Again: why do you believe your body stopped during your alleged NDE? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/242 "2008-04-20T19:26:28Z")
I will wait for questions I have not already answered or for questions arising from the actual reading of the research. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/243 "2008-04-20T19:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I will wait for questions I have not already answered or for questions arising from the actual reading of the research. [/QUOTE] Wait-a-minute. I know you are very busy, but why couldn’t you at least point me to an answer of yours that tells me what kind of “Near Death” you experienced? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/244 "2008-04-20T19:57:44Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I will wait for questions I have not already answered or for questions arising from the actual reading of the research. [/QUOTE] And we will wait for actual research that supports your ideas. Might I suggest that _you_ read your own links before posting them? By the way, what was it you almost died of the night of your “NDE”? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/245 "2008-04-20T19:59:04Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I will wait for questions I have not already answered or for questions arising from the actual reading of the research. [/QUOTE] On second thought, I’m actually offended by your post. 1. I not only read but dug up the actual research you were referring to. And now you casually dismiss my post? Why? 2. You say you will “wait for questions you have not already answered”. Well, to make my case, I linked to several cites which were in this thread. So, what are you telling me? That you are allowed to dismiss questions which you supposedly “already answered”? While I and all other posters actually work to make our points, by quoting other people’s answers and linking to them? You, sir, are extremely rude, if you simply don’t engage in conversation with other posters and dismiss our input. How do you reconcile your posture with your “loving” attitude? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/246 "2008-04-20T21:36:33Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] On second thought, I’m actually offended by your post. 1. I not only read but dug up the actual research you were referring to. And now you casually dismiss my post? Why? 2. You say you will “wait for questions you have not already answered”. Well, to make my case, I linked to several cites which were in this thread. So, what are you telling me? That you are allowed to dismiss questions which you supposedly “already answered”? While I and all other posters actually work to make our points, by quoting other people’s answers and linking to them? You, sir, are extremely rude, if you simply don’t engage in conversation with other posters and dismiss our input. How do you reconcile your posture with your “loving” attitude? [/QUOTE] A loving attitude does not mean being a door mat. The links to the research are good. The research is good. It was checked out in peer-review, and approved for publication. I know its real because I have experienced it first-hand and personal. It is ok if you don’t like the research, just pass it by. If you wish to discuss it I will be happy to do so, Answers to other questions can be found in post nos. 175, 179,and 221. Back to waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/247 "2008-04-20T22:12:05Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] The links to the research are good. The research is good. [/QUOTE] That is untrue, as I and **Czarcasm** demonstrated before. The only peer-reviewed link I found was to a summary of research that undercuts one of your key claims (i.e., that NDEs suggest that consciousness has a nonphysical cause); I found no direct links to peer-reviewed research that supported any of your claims. Admittedly I only looked at a few of your hundreds of links; the signal-to-noise was too great. If you will provide me with exactly one link to exactly one **study** in a peer-reviewed science journal that you believe supports your claim, I will consider it. Please do not link to your cite, though: I’m asking for a direct link to the journal. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/248 "2008-04-20T22:16:18Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] A loving attitude does not mean being a door mat. The links to the research are good. The research is good. It was checked out in peer-review, and approved for publication. I know its real because I have experienced it first-hand and personal. It is ok if you don’t like the research, just pass it by. If you wish to discuss it I will be happy to do so, Answers to other questions can be found in post nos. 175, 179,and 221. Back to waiting. [/QUOTE] #175: > [@lekatt](#): > > You asked if I believed him, and I said no. The reason, I don’t believe fear teachings of any kind. #179: > [@lekatt](#): > > What would there be here for me to defend? I had an experience, and I told same, end of story. #221: > [@lekatt](#): > > I just don’t have the answer to everything you ask, I wrote what I experienced, it was misquoted on purpose in my belief, I am not sure why. The truth will always win in the end. I answered your question many times. Apparently, the answer to your questions is that he has answered your questions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/249 "2008-04-20T22:20:35Z")
**lekatt** , could you give us, just once, a _direct link_ to a peer-reviewed double-blind study that supports your position? No anonymous anecdotes. No book or article reviews. No references to studies in other places. No puff/promo pieces. _One direct link to a peer-reviewed double-blind scientific study._ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/250 "2008-04-20T22:33:35Z")
In fact, I think the question **Czarcasm** and I just asked is so at the core of the issue that I propose an agreement. Folks, can we restrain ourselves from responding to **lekatt** except to repeat this request, until he fulfills it? If he really has the bulk of research he claims that he has, it should take him less than thirty seconds to fulfill it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/251 "2008-04-20T22:52:38Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Tom I don’t agree with anything you say anymore. We are worlds apart. I will always believe the research is good and solid and will lead to proving a non-local consciousness. [/quote] We are, indeed, worlds apart. I would like to see a responsible investigation using the scientific method and you wish to accept any research that appears that it might coincide with your beliefs while rejecting (often rudely) any research that does not conform to your beliefs. Note, again, that I have not rejected as impossible any of the interviews; I have only noted that they do not rise to the level of actual science. [QUOTE=lekatt] No need to waste mine or your time anymore. [/QUOTE] That is not how Great Debates works. As long as you continue to post things that are easily refuted, I will continue to point out the errors so that you do not lead astray any visitor who may not realize the errors in your claims. I will continue to refrain from commenting on your beliefs as long as you express them as beliefs and do not prretend that they have been validated by actual science. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/252 "2008-04-20T22:53:48Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Also there have been experimental surgeries where the blood has been drained from the patients head for a number of minutes and the patient could still see the whole operation. [/QUOTE] I’m with **Czarcasm**. I too would appreciate a cite for this. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/253 "2008-04-20T23:30:34Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] I’m with **Czarcasm**. I too would appreciate a cite for this. [/QUOTE] You are not going to get one. What you will get will be a reference (or a few references) to an operation in which at some point the patient’s brain was supercooled and, possibly, drained and various memories (real or imagined) that were recorded days or months later are interpreted to have been obtained during an OBE. **lekatt** will refuse to acknowledge that memories can be planted and will insist that the anecdotes “prove” something or other. (Meanwhile, all the interested doctors continue to rely on interviews while failing to take steps to actually test their hypotheses.) ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/254 "2008-04-21T02:47:58Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] A loving attitude does not mean being a door mat. The links to the research are good. The research is good. It was checked out in peer-review, and approved for publication. I know its real because I have experienced it first-hand and personal. It is ok if you don’t like the research, just pass it by. If you wish to discuss it I will be happy to do so, Answers to other questions can be found in post nos. 175, 179,and 221. Back to waiting. [/QUOTE] WHAT?!? [Link 175:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9707305&postcount=175) : > [@lekatt](#): > > You asked if I believed him, and I said no. The reason, I don’t believe fear teachings of any kind. (In answer to **DocCathode** ) When did I ask such a thing? [link 179](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9707314&postcount=179): > [@lekatt](#): > > What would there be here for me to defend? I had an experience, and I told same, end of story. Again: **I did not ask you to defend anything** (I won’t even bother to link to the last quote, since it was about the research. Read my posts, lekatt, I’m not asking you any questions about the research). Again: What kind of “Near Death” was involved in your Near Death Experience. And, again: why do you keep insulting me by ignoring my actual posts? Why don’t you engage in a civilized discussion? Why do you even bother to answer? Are you deliberately insulting me by ignoring my posts and my questions ? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/255 "2008-04-21T03:26:53Z")
(btw, I didn’t notice **Czarcasm** had already posted to reply to **lekatt** ’s post ). In case you answered like you did because you got confused, **lekatt** : I’m not **DocCathode**. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/256 "2008-04-21T03:32:35Z")
But you wish you were. Everybody wants to be **DocCathode** ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/257 "2008-04-21T03:49:46Z")
**Lekatt** I’ve read and reread your account of your NDE. It has NOT answered my questions. Merely pointing to the account and saying you have answered my questions helps no one. Did you have a heart attack the night of your NDE? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/258 "2008-04-21T04:28:30Z")
**Lekatt** , maybe you remember that I remain open-minded to levels of perception and understanding of reality that are beyond the “mundane.” That includes NDE. But I also understand the difference between anecdotal experience documentation and scientific documentation and research. I believe that eventually matters of science and matters of the spiritual realm will meet. The more we learn about the universe – both the overwhelmingly large and the unbelievably small – the less traditional laws of physics or day to day logic seems to apply. That doesn’t mean that scientific methods should be abandoned. Nor should logic. What is required is an open mind. Scientists must keep open minds _and follow proper scientific methods_. You also must not call something “scientific” when it is not. Don’t call something “proof” when you mean “evidence.” Don’t call something a “study” or “research” when it is just describing events as they were reported to have occured. That is not the same thing. Please remember that I am not a scientist and not closeminded to the experiences you have described. But they need to be put into perspective. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/259 "2008-04-21T04:55:33Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] But you wish you were. Everybody wants to be **DocCathode** [/QUOTE] Well… d’oh!! But the only way that wish could come true would be via reincarnation. And that’s another can of worms I’d like to keep closed, thankyouverymuch. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/260 "2008-04-21T09:32:44Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] **Lekatt** , maybe you remember that I remain open-minded to levels of perception and understanding of reality that are beyond the “mundane.” That includes NDE. But I also understand the difference between anecdotal experience documentation and scientific documentation and research. I believe that eventually matters of science and matters of the spiritual realm will meet. The more we learn about the universe – both the overwhelmingly large and the unbelievably small – the less traditional laws of physics or day to day logic seems to apply. That doesn’t mean that scientific methods should be abandoned. Nor should logic. What is required is an open mind. Scientists must keep open minds _and follow proper scientific methods_. You also must not call something “scientific” when it is not. Don’t call something “proof” when you mean “evidence.” Don’t call something a “study” or “research” when it is just describing events as they were reported to have occured. That is not the same thing. Please remember that I am not a scientist and not closeminded to the experiences you have described. But they need to be put into perspective. [/QUOTE] Yes, I appreciate your good will. The studies I call scientific are called so by the people who do them, and are published in proper journals. I see no reason for them not to be called scientific studies. I see studies on other subjects done in the same manner called scientific by the posters on this board. The problem lies with the subject not the methods. People die in hospitals and when they come back to life they are able to tell about the events that happened while they were dead. Great care has gone into these studies and Universities of good standing accept and approve them. [http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel\_skeptic\_response.htm](http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm) This link is to a researcher debunking what a skeptic had to say about his research. The research can be looked up in the Lancet where it was published. My post 220. This is good solid research in my opinion. I see nothing wrong with it. Since I have posted here I have been villified, called names, had my posts misquoted on purpose, and generally been harrassed by the skeptical posters that rule this site. They have run off dozens of posters who hold opposing views to theirs. I am still here for now. I do really appreciate your open-minded approach, and the truth you bring to the threads. There is a culture of near death experiencers that outnumber the skeptics, who are honest, caring individuals that deserve their experiences to be heard and discussed in a honest debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=14)