# lekatt's recent hijacks (removed from original threads) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686 "2008-03-29T02:00:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/521 "2008-04-28T22:03:22Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Susan Blackmore [http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23592269-5006012,00.html](http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23592269-5006012,00.html) [/QUOTE] So you’re actually using Susan Blackmore in support of your ideas? I’m familiar with her work, and here’s a hint: she’s not at all on your side. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/522 "2008-04-28T22:08:40Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] So you’re actually using Susan Blackmore in support of your ideas? I’m familiar with her work, and here’s a hint: she’s not at all on your side. [/QUOTE] Well, the only part where she was even mentioned in the article was, precisely, the four or five lines which \*\*lekatt \*\*quoted. Not only that, but what she said is pretty uncontroversial (and even documented): NDE’s often change people’s outlook on life. That, of course, doesn’t exactly further **lekatt** ’s core ideas that NDE’s mean there is uncontroversial proof of life after death nor that during a NDE people step out of their bodies and are able to see things beyond the veil nor anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/523 "2008-04-28T22:15:29Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I don’t have a lot of time now. No one ever said a personal experience was a study, no one. What I called studies, were studies, they probable would not meet the criteria you expect, but they did show a non-local consciousness. [/quote] In the post you pointed me to–post 425–there are no external links at all. There is one anonymous anecdote. Are you calling that a study? Or do you claim that you have provided links to peer-reviewed studies in another location? If it’s the latter claim, again, please provide me with the three-digit identifier for that post; clearly it’s not post 425, as you originally suggested. As for me, I agree that I accept personal experiences as valid unless there’s some reason to doubt them. Personally, I think there’s excellent reason to doubt these, both evolutionarily and evidentiarially (to invent a word perhaps). But that’s another discussion. Before we get into it, we need to establish that you’re backing down from your original claim that you can link to studies describing non-local consciousness. So that we can end this interminable back-and-forth in which I keep asking you to keep your word and you keep dodging the issue, let’s put it this way. Your next post to me either will or will not contain a direct link to a study that you believe establishes evidence of non-local consciousness. If it does contain such a link, we will discuss it. If it does not, I will take that as evidence (admittedly not final evidence, but enough to work with) that you are unable or unwilling to keep your word, and we can move on to discuss the other sorts of evidence you offer to support your claim; I will then take it as given that you agree that your claim is substantially weakened. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/524 "2008-04-28T22:18:54Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I can’t understand why such a deep mistrust of people and their experiences. [/QUOTE] Why do you so deeply mistrust the experiences of others who’ve been fooled by frauds? Why are you so suspicious of critical thinking? Speaking of whales - many take in millions of gallons of seawater in order to obtain nutrition from tiny sea creatures. Even whales, though, have a filtering apparatus. Humans develop a brain filtering apparatus in order to live intelligently. It is not a virtue to leave this faculty entirely undeveloped. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/525 "2008-04-28T23:10:33Z")
To add on to **bikebloke** ’s comment… [QUOTE=lekatt] There have been accounts of experiencers being dead for as long as three days, [/QUOTE] Uh uh. No frigging way. Even IF that were possible, you’d never be able to do so without suffering from **severe** brain damage. **lekatt** , I seem to remember you once quoting Yoda. If we’re going to quote from _Star Wars_, how about: Grand Moff Tarkin: “You’re far too trusting.” Luke Skywalker: “Your overconfidence is your weakness.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/526 "2008-04-28T23:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **lekatt** : I have faith in life and people. I guess I am like Forest Gump. Not a bad guy. You’re right. Forest Gump wasn’t a bad guy and we could learn some things from him. But he wasn’t very bright and, most importantly, he was a fantasy in someone’s mind. If you choose to be open and trusting, that’s _your_ choice. But it isn’t a good way of determining accuracy. It’s not just that people mislead others – that’s just part of it. They very often deceive themselves. Bless you, lekatt. I think you mean well and I think there are things beyond the ability of science at this time. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/527 "2008-04-29T04:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] It’s not just that people mislead others – that’s just part of it. They very often deceive themselves. [/QUOTE] “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.” – Richard P. Feynman ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/528 "2008-04-29T05:01:42Z")
**TWEEEEET!!** Everyone knock off the bad jokes and veiled insults. If you want to discuss **lekatt** ’s claims, this is the thread. If you just want to mock him, I’d be willing to bet there are several **Pit** threads available. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/529 "2008-04-29T05:16:24Z")
For what it’s worth, I’m still curious as to why my liminal experience of being in communion with Goddess, regardless of what I view its underlying reality as, isn’t proof that there really is a Goddess. Is it worth pointing out that, during that experience, I was made to understand that upon death, any individual identity would be totally obliterated but that as She was the Totality in any case and it was impossible to not be part and parcel of Goddess no matter who or what you were? That time itself was illusory as She contained all of the past and present in an all consuming Now? And that death didn’t matter in any case as ego was just an illusion anyway? Does that, then, serve as proof against ‘non-local consciousness’? A refutation? A solid refutation? An irrefutable refutation? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/530 "2008-04-29T05:37:19Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Somebody will ask so I will provide the links: Karl Janson > **[Erowid Ketamine Vault : Ketamine and Quantum Psychiatry, by Karl Jansen](https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_journal5.shtml)** > > 'Ketamine and Quantum Psychiatry', by K.L.R. Jansen Susan Blackmore [http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23592269-5006012,00.html](http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23592269-5006012,00.html) > [@](#): > > UK academic and sceptic Susan Blackmore has conducted much research into near-death experiences (NDEs). > > She writes: “The NDE does seem to produce profound and positive personality changes. After this extraordinary experience people claim that they are no longer so motivated by greed and material achievement but are more concerned about other people and their needs.” [/QUOTE] You should probably start reading your links before you post them. These two links simply gut several of your more serious claims. Blackmore’s comment is not too bad. She says that most people who claim an NDE undergo personality changes for the better. This would support one of your favorite theses, although it is interesting that she makes absolutely no reference to any spiritual aspect. She merely notes a correlation between people claiming NDEs and personality changes without ever even attempting to explain what causes an NDe or even what an NDE actually is. So what did Janson have to say on the subject? Well, for one thing, he directly contradicts one of your most frequent assertions. You have assiduously maintained that people who experience altered states using drugs never undergo the life-changing and personality-changing transformations that people experiencing NDEs do. Yet Janson explicitly says (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > A ‘near-death experience’ (NDE) is a report of leaving the physical body, and sometimes going through a tunnel towards ‘the light’. Ketamine can reproduce all aspects of the NDE, including the conviction of being dead, having a telepathic communion with God, seeing visions, out-of-body trips, mystical states, entering other realities, re-experiencing old memories, and a life review which may have therapeutic value Most NDE’s occur in people who are not physically near death. > > An NDE can be therapeutic. After-effects can include an enhanced joy in living, reduced fear of death, increased concern for others, reduced levels of anxiety and neurosis, reduced addiction, improved health and a resolution of various symptoms. **Positive changes can also follow ketamine -induced NDE’s (K-trips) which occur within a therapeutic alliance**, in an appropriate set and setting. This is called death-rebirth psychotherapy. In other words, the drug ketamine appears to produce not just the immediate memories of an NDE, but also the life-changing after effects. He goes on to talk about the way that he has previously examined physical bases of NDEs and states that he will examine more speculative theories in the current essay. However, for the rest of the essay, he continues to examine physical origins, noting spirituality only when he speculates that the apparent spiritual events that others have experienced might actually be ones in which the person accidentally stumbled upon the physical phenomena about which he is writing. Without expressing any judgment on Dr. Janson’s speculations, I note that he has already observed that NDEs and ketamine therapy have the same results, both short term and long term, and that the ketamine therapy may have a very physical basis. He is not actually providing the support that you claim for your position. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/531 "2008-04-29T06:06:42Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] If you want to discuss **lekatt** ’s claims, this is the thread. [/QUOTE] Discussion implies interaction. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/532 "2008-04-29T06:22:07Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Discussion implies interaction. [/QUOTE] Oh, you can interact with each other–just don’t make that interaction a matter of insulting him, here. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/533 "2008-04-29T06:54:10Z")
Actually, I’m suggesting that there is a _desire_ for interaction, but that, as usual, things are progressing on a frustratingly one-way basis. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/534 "2008-04-29T12:49:52Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] You’re right. Forest Gump wasn’t a bad guy and we could learn some things from him. But he wasn’t very bright and, most importantly, he was a fantasy in someone’s mind. If you choose to be open and trusting, that’s _your_ choice. But it isn’t a good way of determining accuracy. It’s not just that people mislead others – that’s just part of it. They very often deceive themselves. Bless you, lekatt. I think you mean well and I think there are things beyond the ability of science at this time. [/QUOTE] Thank you for your kind words, I am not Forest Gump, of course, but I am not like most others either. Before my experience I lived in the reality of the physical world as most others do. After my experience I discovered the reality of the physical world lives within me. I am not alone, there are many that understand the inverse nature of physical reality. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/535 "2008-04-29T12:53:18Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] You should probably start reading your links before you post them. These two links simply gut several of your more serious claims. Blackmore’s comment is not too bad. She says that most people who claim an NDE undergo personality changes for the better. This would support one of your favorite theses, although it is interesting that she makes absolutely no reference to any spiritual aspect. She merely notes a correlation between people claiming NDEs and personality changes without ever even attempting to explain what causes an NDe or even what an NDE actually is. So what did Janson have to say on the subject? Well, for one thing, he directly contradicts one of your most frequent assertions. You have assiduously maintained that people who experience altered states using drugs never undergo the life-changing and personality-changing transformations that people experiencing NDEs do. Yet Janson explicitly says (bolding mine)In other words, the drug ketamine appears to produce not just the immediate memories of an NDE, but also the life-changing after effects. He goes on to talk about the way that he has previously examined physical bases of NDEs and states that he will examine more speculative theories in the current essay. However, for the rest of the essay, he continues to examine physical origins, noting spirituality only when he speculates that the apparent spiritual events that others have experienced might actually be ones in which the person accidentally stumbled upon the physical phenomena about which he is writing. Without expressing any judgment on Dr. Janson’s speculations, I note that he has already observed that NDEs and ketamine therapy have the same results, both short term and long term, and that the ketamine therapy may have a very physical basis. He is not actually providing the support that you claim for your position. [/QUOTE] I have traded many emails with both of these skeptics, and did not mean to imply they were suddenly on my side. Only that both have softened their positions concerning the spiritual nature of mankind. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/536 "2008-04-29T12:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] For what it’s worth, I’m still curious as to why my liminal experience of being in communion with Goddess, regardless of what I view its underlying reality as, isn’t proof that there really is a Goddess. Is it worth pointing out that, during that experience, I was made to understand that upon death, any individual identity would be totally obliterated but that as She was the Totality in any case and it was impossible to not be part and parcel of Goddess no matter who or what you were? That time itself was illusory as She contained all of the past and present in an all consuming Now? And that death didn’t matter in any case as ego was just an illusion anyway? Does that, then, serve as proof against ‘non-local consciousness’? A refutation? A solid refutation? An irrefutable refutation? Why or why not? [/QUOTE] I would think that self-evident. Only truth matters. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/537 "2008-04-29T13:00:13Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I have traded many emails with both of these skeptics, and did not mean to imply they were suddenly on my side. Only that both have softened their positions concerning the spiritual nature of mankind. [/QUOTE] This may be true, but your links provided no evidence of that. Regardless, we still have the case where no scientific research has provided evidence that NDEs are anything more than some chemical reaction inthe brain–and Janson’s observation regarding ketamine even provides a direct chemical parallel. NDEs may be sprirtual awakenings during physical death, but with the evidence you have thus far produced (none), your belief is simply not persuasive to people who are looking for answers about the events. (This includes both skeptics and devoutly spiritual people who simply prefer to have evidence for new claims about odd occurrences.) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/538 "2008-04-29T13:00:25Z")
Have you had time to think about my question? [QUOTE=Fear Itself] [QUOTE=lekatt] I take most things at face value until proven different. [/QUOTE] And what do you accept as proof that someones’s claim for a personal experience is probably false? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/539 "2008-04-29T13:03:09Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] To add on to **bikebloke** ’s comment… Uh uh. No frigging way. Even IF that were possible, you’d never be able to do so without suffering from **severe** brain damage. **lekatt** , I seem to remember you once quoting Yoda. If we’re going to quote from _Star Wars_, how about: Grand Moff Tarkin: “You’re far too trusting.” Luke Skywalker: “Your overconfidence is your weakness.” [/QUOTE] This is all I know about it, but I did see him on television. > **[Question 08 about Near Death Experiences.](https://aleroy.com/FAQz08.htm)** > > Question 08 about Near Death Experiences. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686/540 "2008-04-29T13:07:31Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Why do you so deeply mistrust the experiences of others who’ve been fooled by frauds? Why are you so suspicious of critical thinking? Speaking of whales - many take in millions of gallons of seawater in order to obtain nutrition from tiny sea creatures. Even whales, though, have a filtering apparatus. Humans develop a brain filtering apparatus in order to live intelligently. It is not a virtue to leave this faculty entirely undeveloped. [/QUOTE] It is a matter of survival, negative thinking people live with more negative experiences. Positive thinking people live longer, happer, and more successful lives. It is a matter of choice, no one forces either side that you need to obey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-recent-hijacks-removed-from-original-threads/444686.md?page=28)