# Lekatt's Thread: The \*only\* place to find out about Lekatt's beliefs! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273 "2010-04-07T14:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/201 "2010-04-11T22:06:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I never went to the Hospital, I declined the surgery.[personal info, for the curious](http://aleroy.com/Person.htm) Surgery for what? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/202 "2010-04-11T23:25:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I said I was a follower of Jesus, not the Christ or the Messiah. Jesus was believed to be the Christ by the crowds, but came only to teach and heal. Fair enough. I’m still genuinely interested in what you meant by “science teaches negative concepts”. Your later post didn’t provide any examples. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/203 "2010-04-12T00:18:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You never went to a hospital. No doctor declared that you were near death. You were disturbed when you went to bed. You either had a waking dream(most likely) or a visitation from an otherworldly entity. You woke up the next morning. > No NDE. I don’t want to talk to you about this, you just keep making-up things that are not true, you were not there, you know nothing about it. I went out of body to near the ceiling like most near death experiencers, I was aware of the things happening around me below, like most near death experiencers, I met a spiritual being who talked to me, like a lot of near death experiencers, I felt the love and experienced the great knowledge within the love like most near death experiencers, I was given to choice of “going on” dying or of returning to my body as most near death experiencers, I felt for my family and made the decision to return to my body as other near death experiencers do. Now shut-up. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/204 "2010-04-12T00:26:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Now shut-up. You are out of line. This thread is here to permit you to post some of the same bullshit (for new members) that you have posted in earlier threads. If you do not want to have people ask you questions, then simply stop posting. You will NOT tell other posters to “shut up” simply because they challenge you on the inconsistencies you have posted on your blog and in threads on the SDMB over the years. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/205 "2010-04-12T00:26:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t want to talk to you about this, you just keep making-up things that are not true, you were not there, you know nothing about it. > > I went out of body to near the ceiling like most near death experiencers, I was aware of the things happening around me below, like most near death experiencers, I met a spiritual being who talked to me, like a lot of near death experiencers, I felt the love and experienced the great knowledge within the love like most near death experiencers, I was given to choice of “going on” dying or of returning to my body as most near death experiencers, I felt for my family and made the decision to return to my body as other near death experiencers do. > > Now shut-up. You. Were. _Not_. Near. Death. THAT is the qualification you are lacking in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/206 "2010-04-12T00:27:19Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Fair enough. > > I’m still genuinely interested in what you meant by “science teaches negative concepts”. Your later post didn’t provide any examples. There are a lot of things science now teaches against, like spirituality, religion, UFOs, and many other negative teachings. Science even has evangilists like Richard Dawkins, and others. Science teaches these things don’t exist, but can’t prove a word of the claims. That is negative teaching. Negative teaching is new to science, when I was a kid science was unconcerned with these things and the priority was on helping make life better for others, as it should have been. For and against teaching brings out the worse in people and is undesirable. If you want to be successful in life, if you want to be happy, peaceful and full of joy, then you have to give up the negatives in your life. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/207 "2010-04-12T00:27:41Z")
By the way, if your behavior is an example of all the peace and joy that you claim are the result of NDEs, then clearly you have not experienced one. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/208 "2010-04-12T00:30:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are a lot of things science now teaches against, like spirituality, religion, UFOs, and many other negative teachings. Science even has evangilists like Richard Dawkins, and others. Science teaches these things don’t exist, but can’t prove a word of the claims. That is negative teaching. Negative teaching is new to science, when I was a kid science was unconcerned with these things and the priority was on helping make life better for others, as it should have been. “Science” teaches none of the things that you claim against it. The fact that you cannot discern the difference between the _philosophical_ claims of Dawkins and the activities of Science demonstrates, once again, that you really do not grasp how Science works or what it does. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/209 "2010-04-12T00:34:04Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I went out of body to near the ceiling I thought that was called an “out of body experience” aka an “OBE”, not a NDE. Can someone (NOT **lekatt** ) explain what the hell “mental telepathy” means? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/210 "2010-04-12T00:37:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I thought that was called an “out of body experience” aka an “OBE”, not a NDE. > Can someone (NOT **lekatt** ) explain what the hell “mental telepathy” means? It means that you hear voices in your head, and your first supposition is that the voices originate from an outside source. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/211 "2010-04-12T00:38:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > “Science” teaches none of the things that you claim against it. > > The fact that you cannot discern the difference between the _philosophical_ claims of Dawkins and the activities of Science demonstrates, once again, that you really do not grasp how Science works or what it does. Tom I know it is perfectly ok for him to make up stories and untruths, things he could not possible know about me and you to call me names and belittle everything I say. It has gone on for years. You don’t really need an excuse to lock this thread as you have done so many times in the past. No matter what you do now, I am pleased, this is the most successful thread I have ever participated on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/212 "2010-04-12T00:44:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Tom I know it is perfectly ok for him to make up stories and untruths, things he could not possible know about me and you to call me names and belittle everything I say. It has gone on for years. You don’t really need an excuse to lock this thread as you have done so many times in the past. No matter what you do now, I am pleased, this is the most successful thread I have ever participated on this board. What have I lied about? I used your own website as a source. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/213 "2010-04-12T00:49:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Tom I know it is perfectly ok for him to make up stories and untruths, things he could not possible know about me and you to call me names and belittle everything I say. It has gone on for years. You don’t really need an excuse to lock this thread as you have done so many times in the past. No matter what you do now, I am pleased, this is the most successful thread I have ever participated on this board. Everything Czarcasm has posted about you has been taken from your posts or blog. You are the one who cannot post a straight answer. Claiming that he posts “untruths” when he is posting what you have said is disingenuous in the extreme. OTOH, I am trying to let you actually post, here, and you continue to post things that are not in accord with the facts that YOU have posted. You are not a martyr; you are simply a self-aggrandizing poster who wants to claim moral superiority while engaging in the same nasty little behavior as the posters you so condescendingly condemn. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/214 "2010-04-12T00:58:16Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I said I was a follower of Jesus, not the Christ or the Messiah. Jesus was believed to be the Christ by the crowds, but came only to teach and heal. Just want to say I actually understand this. Muslims think Jesus was a great teacher, but not “the Christ”. They would bristle if you called them Christians. I also want to say that, while it’s possible the experience was not an NDE, that doesn’t mean it absolutely wasn’t. People can almost die without being in a hospital. The thing is, you have no PROOF that you almost died. This means you’re NDE is worth less than regular ones, which are pretty shaky to begin with. This seems to be the fundamental disconnect: If you cannot provide proof that can be experienced by someone else, then you cannot convince that someone else. Full stop. In fact, trying to do so constantly actually makes people LESS likely to believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/215 "2010-04-12T01:26:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The thing is, you have no PROOF that you almost died. This means you’re NDE is worth less than regular ones, which are pretty shaky to begin with. It’s a little worse than his word against others, because the entirety of his description of his Near Death is this: [QUOTE=lekatt] The voice said: “Do you wish to continue here or would you like to go on?” After considering this question only a few seconds, I replied: “I want to continue, of course.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/216 "2010-04-12T03:08:58Z")
I see no reason to doubt that lekatt had a spiritual epiphany, despite his not having a near death experience. Perhaps his pineal started producing too much dimethyltryptamine. Perhaps he had a stroke or a concussion. Perhaps there was a change in the magnetic fields affecting his brain. Perhaps he was tripping. Any number of things could lead to the symptoms he took to be an NDE. What remains is that the functioning of his brain – the way his synapses and chemical neurotransmitters were functioning – changed, and the way his brain tried to make sense of this resulted in his belief that he went through an NDE, that there are CUs, and that love as set out by Jesus and other Christians holds everything together. His religious epiphany was a normal aspect of brain function under whatever physical changes his brain was facing. It is worth noting that his perceptions are every bit as real to him as your perceptions are real to you and my perceptions are real to me, and that by their very nature, neurologic religious epiphanies are powerful and deeply moving. We can use neurology to investigate how the brain functions. We can use logic, rational thought, and the scientific method, to determine if our perceptions match objective reality. Against this, there is the powerful experience that lekatt suffered, which was so profound that I doubt if any degree of rational, neurologic based explanation of what lekatt experienced will affect his belief. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/217 "2010-04-12T06:56:24Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I went out of body to near the ceiling [/QUOTE] Let me guess… It was the ceiling of a belfry, with bats around ? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/218 "2010-04-12T11:43:29Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Tom I know it is perfectly ok for him to make up stories and untruths, things he could not possible know about me and you to call me names and belittle everything I say. It has gone on for years. You don’t really need an excuse to lock this thread as you have done so many times in the past. No matter what you do now, I am pleased, this is the most successful thread I have ever participated on this board. What do you consider successful about it? You told me you can’t help me and didn’t answer a single question I asked. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/219 "2010-04-12T12:55:02Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I see no reason to doubt that lekatt had a spiritual epiphany, despite his not having a near death experience. Perhaps his pineal started producing too much dimethyltryptamine. Perhaps he had a stroke or a concussion. Perhaps there was a change in the magnetic fields affecting his brain. Perhaps he was tripping. Any number of things could lead to the symptoms he took to be an NDE. What remains is that the functioning of his brain – the way his synapses and chemical neurotransmitters were functioning – changed, and the way his brain tried to make sense of this resulted in his belief that he went through an NDE, that there are CUs, and that love as set out by Jesus and other Christians holds everything together. His religious epiphany was a normal aspect of brain function under whatever physical changes his brain was facing. > > It is worth noting that his perceptions are every bit as real to him as your perceptions are real to you and my perceptions are real to me, and that by their very nature, neurologic religious epiphanies are powerful and deeply moving. We can use neurology to investigate how the brain functions. We can use logic, rational thought, and the scientific method, to determine if our perceptions match objective reality. Against this, there is the powerful experience that lekatt suffered, which was so profound that I doubt if any degree of rational, neurologic based explanation of what lekatt experienced will affect his belief. I don’t have a belief, it was a personal experience. Albert Einstein said: “Without experience there is no knowledge.” I can’t prove my personal experiece to anyone, the only evidence is my changed life. My partner is business said to me, he had never seen anyone change as much as I had. But what you have is only belief. You can’t show any evidence of consciousness physically in the brain. No thoughts, emotions, or memory has even been shown to physically reside in the brain. The only measurement of what science believes to be consciousness is in brain activity. What you have stated in your post is only opinion, and guesses. Considering brain activity, is it actually coming from the brain, no evidence of that either, since it is measured on the surface of the brain. It could be going to the brain from a non-local source undetected by the instuments of science. You have no evidence at all. Now we know that people die on operating tables and are brought back to life. If that individual had an out of body experience he can accurately tell what went on while he was dead. There are thousands of these veridical near death experiences held and studied by researchers. What we have here is real evidence of the separation of brain and consciousness. Dr. Bruce Grayson of the University of Virginia has a large collection of these experiences. This is not opinion as you have, but real evidence of separation. At this time more than a dozen universities, world wide and hundreds of researchers are studying NDEs. The results of these studies have been the validation of separation of brain and body. When the body dies the consciousness (that’s you) separates. Now you can call me names, belittle the science, and general ignore all of the progress these near death reseachers have made, but in time the truth will be known by everyone. I will post a veridical near death experience, one that is typical of what happens during one. > [@](#): > > I am an emergency room nurse. About a year ago we received a patient by ambulance in full cardiorespiratory arrest. No pulse, no effective cardiac rhythm ( refractory ventricular fibrillation ). Patient had been in arrest for at least 15 minutes prior to arival. CPR/ACLS in progress on arrival. > > To make a long story short, we worked him for about 25 minutes without positive response. The physician in charge stated that we would defibrillate one more time and if no response we would stop. One last shock, and his heart converted to a beating rhythm, and continued to impove from there, later being admitted to intensive care. > > AT NO POINT DURING HIS STAY IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAS HE CONSCIOUS. Most of the time he was technically dead. > > The next day, one of the ICU nurses called down and told us the patient wanted to see several of the ER staff. He named several of us by name, and described us to the ICU nurses. He said he wanted to see us in person “to make sure he wasn’t going crazy”. > > During a slow time later that night we went upstairs and he called us by name without introductions. He told a story of floating out of his body, just below the ceiling, watching us attempt resuscitation. He said he knew our names from when we called out to each other while working on him. One thing I found especially fascinating was that he said when we defibrillated ( shocked ) him, he would be pulled back into his body for a few seconds, then end up back floating by the ceiling a few seconds after. The last time we defibbed him he was pulled back in and became unconscious. At this point he had a pulse and improved. > > We have talked quite a bit about it here. Some of the staff think maybe he was actually semi-conscious the whole time, his brain remaining oxegenated and at least partly functional due to effective CPR. Something akin to anesthetized surgical patients retaining the sense of hearing and being able to relate the conversations of the operating team after they have been awakened. > > Others in the group here believe it was a NDE. We reason that this would explain the out-of-body viewpoint and the retention of sight and cognitive abilities by the patient even though he was to all intents and purposes dead when we were together in the ER. There is no other way he could have known our names, either, as his family was not allowed in the room during the resuscitation. > > None of us have any experience in this matter and when I stumbled on this newsgroup I thought I’d post and see what you all thought. > > Answer: He learned that this kind of experience has been seen many times in this group. For those who may think the patient was semi-conscious and listening, please note the author states: “He named several of us by name, and described us to the ICU nurses.” This question is quoted from the alt.consciousness.near-death-exp newsgroup with the permission of the author. He was directed to NDE accounts for further reading. Multiply this by a few thousand and you will see why there are so many doctors researching near death experiences. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/220 "2010-04-12T13:06:29Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What do you consider successful about it? You told me you can’t help me and didn’t answer a single question I asked. I gave you a link that expanded into about a hundred links of studies and research being done on near death experiences. You told me you couldn’t find any in all those links. So there was nothing more I could do for you. The interest I have received from this thread, both on the board and off, is the most interest I have every received from any thread by tenfold. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=12)