# Lekatt's Thread: The \*only\* place to find out about Lekatt's beliefs! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273 "2010-04-07T14:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/341 "2010-04-15T22:53:48Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Why do some people believe in god, while other people do not? Of the people who believe in god, why is it that some believe with an unshakable fervency, whereas others believe in god but are willing to modify what they believe to some degree. Why is it that the people of one culture/geographic locale who believe in god tend to belive in a particular god, whereas the people of another culture/geobraphic locale who believe in god tend to believe in a different particular god? When people have visions of god, why is it that the god they see is the god that they already believed in or that they already had been broadly exposed to (Persinger’s god helmet has come up with some interesting things on this.) I’d bet that for all thse questions between 80 and 100% of the answer is “they were raised that way.” And it’s not like religion is the only thing that varies. Some people like watching sports, and some don’t. Do we need to fall back on differing brain structure to explain this? > [@Muffin](#): > > I expect that our brains create our own realities for us, and that we share realities because our brains function very similarly. When a person’s brain functions significantly differently, I would not be surprised that the reality of that person differs significantly from the reality of most people. I think that people’s realities can differ _quite_ far without any abnormality in the brain structure whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/342 "2010-04-15T23:59:02Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > To build models, theories, and opinions about something unknown is worse than just saying “I don’t know,” because the theories tend to become a point of judgement by which all new discoveries or concepts are compared. This makes building models, and theories worse than not building them. That is not an accurate description of Science. I do notice, though, that you are now admitting that you belive Science is bad. You are dismissing Science out-of-hand. > [@](#): > > The word spiritual is a kind of “zap” word to scientists because of what they have been taught, and not because they hold any real evidence to the contrary. It was a benchmark to define science as better, smarter than religion. That, also, is not accurate. There are plenty of scientists who happen also to be religious. And, by that, I certainly do not mean what you take it to mean, i.e. the Scientists’ religion is Science itself. I mean that there are scientists who are believing and practicing Baptists, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and so on. They are not afraid of spirituality and are not afraid of Science. You, on the other hand, have just admitted that you think Science is “worse than nothing.” > [@](#): > > The research I have provided the links to does not measure anecdotes, nor stories, nor any events skeptics have falsely label the research to contain. The research is simple and straight forward. What is tested and observed is whether someone who is clinically dead can know the events happening around his body while he is clinically dead. The verifiers of this research are the surgeons, doctors, and staff in attendance while the patient is coded and after the patient is revived. Did they know what was going on while they were clinically dead, the research says yes they did. This is evidence of a non-local consciousness, plain and simple. But do to theories of science, this can not be, so the messenges are maligned and sent packing. Your links (well, it’s really all one link–your blog–but let’s give that a pass for the moment) boil down into two categories: [ol][li]Anecdotes[/li][li]Statements from others that do not say what you assert they say[/ol][/li] > [@](#): > > While main-stream science has turned its back on the thirty years of research by qualified doctors working at qualified universities the general public has not. That’s kind of odd. The general public is learning Science, especially the Scientific Method, as we type. Science is taught in all levels of education and all around the world. > [@](#): > > For the rest of my natural life I will ask others to read the research and study the near death experiences. Nothing wrong with that. What’s wrong is your dismissing actual evidence, actual Science, in favor of something you wish you had experienced. If it’s such an important event for you and for everyone else, as you claim, perhaps you should answer the other poster’s question on how they can go about having a near death experience (without actuallly dying or suffering brain damage, of course)\*. Who knows? Maybe the two of you could conduct an actual experiment into the matter\*\*\*\*\*. > [@](#): > > Oh, yes, I do know about the scientific method, and most of the theories of the brain. The evidence on this board is that you do not know either. Sorry if that bursts your bubble but your continued beating the drum of anecdotes and what you wish had happened does not constitute any part whatsoever of the Scientific Method. > [@](#): > > I read everything new in the science field at well as the NDEs. How does reading something that you apprently don’t really understand–and have never actually experienced–qualify you as an authority on the matter? \ ***Mods: I am not advocating anyone at all pursue such a course of action!** ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/343 "2010-04-16T03:54:51Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > _You’re_ just so much math, as am I. You of all people should know better, **begbert2**. Math is not physical. As a materialist, you cannot therefore claim that beings are math. So you can either take it back, or turn in your materialist badge 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/344 "2010-04-16T04:21:12Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Math is not physical. It is when it is time to do taxes. That’s when math is very physical. It kicks the shit out of me every year about this time. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/345 "2010-04-16T04:39:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It is when it is time to do taxes. That’s when math is very physical. It kicks the shit out of me every year about this time. Ah, taxes. I got many hundreds of dollars! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/346 "2010-04-16T11:58:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That is not an accurate description of Science. I do notice, though, that you are now admitting that you belive Science is bad. You are dismissing Science out-of-hand. > How does reading something that you apprently don’t really understand–and have never actually experienced–qualify you as an authority on the matter? I understand science well, it’s the scientists I have trouble with. In order to understand the research being done on near death experiences, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist. No need to check in the Bible to see if it’s ok to read them, nor to check with the scientific method. The research is very simple, either they can tell what happened while they were clinically dead or not. Even a cave man can understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/347 "2010-04-16T12:32:07Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I understand science well, it’s the scientists I have trouble with. In order to understand the research being done on near death experiences, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist. No need to check in the Bible to see if it’s ok to read them, nor to check with the scientific method. The research is very simple, either they can tell what happened while they were clinically dead or not. Even a cave man can understand it. So, where is it that scientists have been “checking with the Bible to see if it’s okay” to read your blog? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/348 "2010-04-16T13:01:05Z")
It’s clear \*\*lekatt \*\*is not interested in the scientific method and participating in a scientific debate. Just as religion and superstition, **lekatt** is dealing in the currency of faith. He is unable to look critically at that which he believes out of fear that his faith is based on an illusion. He has no business on a website that claims to be fighting ignorance. He is not interested in fighting ignorance and has no interest in eliminating his own. He is willfully ignorant. Not to say this thread was as waste of time. After all, **Mr. Kobayashi** contributed a great deal of fascinating discussion and an illuminating variety of links. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/349 "2010-04-16T13:06:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > So, where is it that scientists have been “checking with the Bible to see if it’s okay” to read your blog? I put that in there because the religious people give me as much hell as do the skeptics. Seems no one likes to be positive these days. But it really is the doctrine of religion and science that I don’t adhere to that makes people dislike what I have to say. But not all people, the large majority agree at least somewhat with me. It’s a dirty job, but someone has to do it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/350 "2010-04-16T13:12:53Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > It’s clear \*\*lekatt \*\*is not interested in the scientific method and participating in a scientific debate. Just as religion and superstition, **lekatt** is dealing in the currency of faith. He is unable to look critically at that which he believes out of fear that his faith is based on an illusion. He has no business on a website that claims to be fighting ignorance. He is not interested in fighting ignorance and has no interest in eliminating his own. He is willfully ignorant. > > Not to say this thread was as waste of time. After all, **Mr. Kobayashi** contributed a great deal of fascinating discussion and an illuminating variety of links. I am not interested in any method, whether it be science, religion, politics, etc. I am interested in truth and reality. My knowledge comes from experience not faith, but because someone has faith in God does not make them ignorant. Blind belief in any method is still blind belief. This particular thread has been great. I have learned from it and I hope others have also. BTW if you kick everyone off the board that you don’t agree with, how can there be any debates at all? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/351 "2010-04-16T13:45:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not interested in any method, whether it be science, religion, politics, etc. I am interested in truth and reality. My knowledge comes from experience not faith, but because someone has faith in God does not make them ignorant. Blind belief in any method is still blind belief. This particular thread has been great. I have learned from it and I hope others have also. BTW if you kick everyone off the board that you don’t agree with, how can there be any debates at all? If you had even attempted to provide any evidence whatsoever of what you claim, you might have found that people are interested in discussing it rationally. But, no, all you seem to be capable of is rejecting any evidence that conflicts with your belief system. If you were interested in truth and reality, you would take an objective look at your beliefs, but you’ve refused to do that repeatedly. You are right about blind belief. Except what you fail to recognize is that the scientific method exists specifically to eliminate blind belief. Out of curiosity , what have you learned from this thread? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/352 "2010-04-16T14:05:45Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > If you had even attempted to provide any evidence whatsoever of what you claim, you might have found that people are interested in discussing it rationally. But, no, all you seem to be capable of is rejecting any evidence that conflicts with your belief system. > > If you were interested in truth and reality, you would take an objective look at your beliefs, but you’ve refused to do that repeatedly. You are right about blind belief. Except what you fail to recognize is that the scientific method exists specifically to eliminate blind belief. > > Out of curiosity , what have you learned from this thread? I learned that what science has concerning the consciousness being created by the brain is all theory, models, and opinions. You are the only one that called it evidence. Theories that can not be tested. Only the other hand I did show research that did provide evidence of what I believe. Simple, and easy to understand research. Could it be that the blind are leading the blind? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/353 "2010-04-16T14:16:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I learned that what science has concerning the consciousness being created by the brain is all theory, models, and opinions. You are the only one that called it evidence. Theories that can not be tested. > > Only the other hand I did show research that did provide evidence of what I believe. Simple, and easy to understand research. > > Could it be that the blind are leading the blind? I think you’re very, very confused about what science is and what it isn’t. Science is, to a very large degree, theory, models, “opinions” (actually the same as theory in your vocabulary). What you have, on the other hand, are some scattered data points. Which, if interpreted and validated against a mode,l can become part of a scientific endeavor to understand if a NDE involves extra-corporeal activity at all. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/354 "2010-04-16T14:26:29Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I learned that what science has concerning the consciousness being created by the brain is all theory, models, and opinions. You are the only one that called it evidence. Theories that can not be tested. Which demonstrates that you have not bothered to read or even attempt to understand anything that \*\*Mr. Kobayashi \*\*posted wrt the scientific method. Without rehashing the entirety of it, a theory is born out of on tested and repeated evidence of a hypothesis. You have a hypothesis, but no evidence that can be tested and repeated, therefor, your hypothesis that consciousness is separate from brain activity is utterly weak and proves absolutely nothing. Further, it has been demonstrated repeatedly that your hypothesis can easily be refuted with actual evidence that contradicts your hypothesis. Hence, the theory (as reinforced by tested and measurable EVIDENCE) that consciousness is directly linked to brain activity is much stronger than your hypothesis that it is not. Because you put so much faith in anecdotal evidence, I could easily say that I, too, have experienced an NDE, and as long as I describe in well-known terms that you accept, you would be unable to disagree with me in the same manner you are asking everyone else to accept your experience as fact. > [@](#): > > Only the other hand I did show research that did provide evidence of what I believe. Simple, and easy to understand research. Repeat after me: research is not the same as evidence. > [@](#): > > Could it be that the blind are leading the blind? Well, you should know, given the fact that you refuse to think critically about anything you read so long as it matches what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/355 "2010-04-16T14:34:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I am **highly** dubious about acupuncture. And if it does work, which I don’t grant, it had _better_ be physical or you’ll lose your materialist cred - which already looks pretty wobbly to me. Acupuncture does seem to work. [Here](http://www.annals.org/content/136/5/374.abstract) is an article from the Annals of Internal Medicine which describes some of the findings: > [@](#): > > Basic-science research provides evidence that begins to offer plausible mechanisms for the presumed physiologic effects of acupuncture. Multiple research approaches have shown that acupuncture activates endogenous opioid mechanisms. Recent data, obtained by using functional magnetic resonance imaging, suggest that acupuncture has regionally specific, quantifiable effects on relevant brain structures. Point is, then and now, people were on to _something_ with these ideas, but seem to have had the wrong idea regarding the mechanism at work. They thought it was prana, could develop a whole theory and get some results… but that was before microscopes and modern science came along. So, the guys weren’t fools to believe in prana, as long as they are intellectually honest enough to accept a better explanation when one comes along. Personally I think it is interesting that they could develop something effective without full understanding of the body. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/356 "2010-04-16T14:49:55Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Well, you should know, given the fact that you refuse to think critically about anything you read so long as it matches what you believe. Oh, he’s gone one step beyond that, **Brown Eyed Girl**. He’s accused anyone who doesn’t agree with him of being stupide than a caveman. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/357 "2010-04-16T14:56:14Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > I think you’re very, very confused about what science is and what it isn’t. > > Science is, to a very large degree, theory, models, “opinions” (actually the same as theory in your vocabulary). > > What you have, on the other hand, are some scattered data points. Which, if interpreted and validated against a mode,l can become part of a scientific endeavor to understand if a NDE involves extra-corporeal activity at all. I am not confused about science, I studied science growing up like anyone else did. But over 50 years ago science was not to a large degree made up of models, and theories. There were some, of course, but not much emphasis placed on them. Today it seems that is all there is to science. Science used to go after truth and reality with a passion. During my childhood new breakthroughs in medicine, and physics were common. Today I see little being done. Lots of talk about fusion, stem cells, genes, and other things, but no real benefits being produced. If there had been the thousands of near death experiences happening then they would have been first priority research. Today they are labled as ancedotal, whatever that is supposed to mean. Means nothing to me. I believe in my personal experiences, and I think most other people do also. Yes, there is good evidence of consciousness being non-local, simple, easy to understand evidence. When someone dies can they still observe their surroundings. Yes they can, the evidence says in a strong voice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/358 "2010-04-16T15:00:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I believe in my personal experiences, and I think most other people do also. But since your personal experience, _at best_, involved you having an OBE, I don’t think you can personally relate to those who had an NDE. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/359 "2010-04-16T15:02:16Z")
Er. “Stupider than a caveman.” Please forgive the misspelling above. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/360 "2010-04-16T15:05:07Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > But over 50 years ago science was not to a large degree made up of models, and theories. There were some, of course, but not much emphasis placed on them. This is patently false. Science has been made up of models, hypotheses, and theories for a quite considerable time, far longer than 50 years. There’s a reason that the methodology is called the Scientific Method, after all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=19)