# Lekatt's Thread: The \*only\* place to find out about Lekatt's beliefs! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273 "2010-04-07T14:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/361 "2010-04-16T15:29:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not confused about science, I studied science growing up like anyone else did. (snip) Well, it’s obvious that “studying science growing up” isn’t enough. Meaning: In highschool they teach you, mostly, the results. I don’t actually know when the scientific method is taught in the U.S. (or since when) but I strongly suspect you never got around to that level. Your knowledge is quite obviously based on Popular Science, which even in magazines like “Scientific American” glosses over the actual inner workings of scientific discovery. Like someone above posted, albeit in different words: You can collect a thousand anecdotes and still not have usable data. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/362 "2010-04-16T16:00:05Z")
**DiggitCamara** : I learned about the Scientific Method in high school in Virginia. Many years later, in a college Science class, I again was taught about that and, interestingly enough, it was the very same information as in the high school class. That high school happened to be a public high school, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/363 "2010-04-16T16:41:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **DiggitCamara** : I learned about the Scientific Method in high school in Virginia. Many years later, in a college Science class, I again was taught about that and, interestingly enough, it was the very same information as in the high school class. That high school happened to be a public high school, by the way. And just out of curiosity: when was this? Do you happen to know if it had always been on the curriculum? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/364 "2010-04-16T17:04:55Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > Well, it’s obvious that “studying science growing up” isn’t enough. Meaning: In highschool they teach you, mostly, the results. I don’t actually know when the scientific method is taught in the U.S. (or since when) but I strongly suspect you never got around to that level. > > Your knowledge is quite obviously based on Popular Science, which even in magazines like “Scientific American” glosses over the actual inner workings of scientific discovery. > > Like someone above posted, albeit in different words: You can collect a thousand anecdotes and still not have usable data. Since you obviously know all about my knowledge of science, I won’t bother to correct you. However, near death experience research does not consist of gathering anecdotes. It consist of much less than that. The question is can those who die on the operating tables still observe the activity around their body. The result of the research is yes they can. Thereby providing evidence of non-local consciousness. Very simple. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/365 "2010-04-16T17:16:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Since you obviously know all about my knowledge of science, I won’t bother to correct you. However, near death experience research does not consist of gathering anecdotes. It consist of much less than that. The question is can those who die on the operating tables still observe the activity around their body. The result of the research is yes they can. Thereby providing evidence of non-local consciousness. Very simple. Define “research”, please. Also, going back to post #201, what was it you _didn’t_ have surgery for? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/366 "2010-04-16T17:40:22Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Since you obviously know all about my knowledge of science, I won’t bother to correct you. However, near death experience research does not consist of gathering anecdotes. It consist of much less than that. The question is can those who die on the operating tables still observe the activity around their body. The result of the research is yes they can. Thereby providing evidence of non-local consciousness. Very simple. Why wouldn’t you correct me on that point? If you have a significant amount of knowledge about the Scientific Method or about your access to research papers, it would be very relevant to the topic and would help put us on the same level, wouldn’t it? As to the “question”: Where do you get the idea that those who “die” on the operating tables can observe the activity around the body? One of the interesting paragraphs in the [skepdic’s link about NDE’s](http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html) says: > [@skepdic](#): > > One way to avoid contamination of stories has been developed by University of North Texas professor Dr. Jan Holden.\* She designed an experiment in which a laptop computer that opens flat hangs from the ceiling with the screen facing away from the floor. Her husband developed a software program that produces a series of animations. If a patient claims to have been floating above her body on the operating table, then she ought to have seen the computer screen and be able to report on what she saw. Dr. Bruce Greyson has apparently been using this protocol for a few years but so far has not reported anything of interest. So: NDE’s that report relevant information about their surroundings don’t seem to happen as frequently as you think they do. And that puts your assertion that “Yes they do” very much in question. And makes a description of your activities as an “anecdote gatherer” completely valid. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/367 "2010-04-16T18:12:49Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > You of all people should know better, **begbert2**. Math is not physical. As a materialist, you cannot therefore claim that beings are math. > > So you can either take it back, or turn in your materialist badge 😃 Does your web browser exist? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/368 "2010-04-16T19:20:12Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > Why wouldn’t you correct me on that point? If you have a significant amount of knowledge about the Scientific Method or about your access to research papers, it would be very relevant to the topic and would help put us on the same level, wouldn’t it? > > As to the “question”: Where do you get the idea that those who “die” on the operating tables can observe the activity around the body? One of the interesting paragraphs in the [skepdic’s link about NDE’s](http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html) says: > So: NDE’s that report relevant information about their surroundings don’t seem to happen as frequently as you think they do. And that puts your assertion that “Yes they do” very much in question. And makes a description of your activities as an “anecdote gatherer” completely valid. Someone has things all mixed up. Dr Bruce Grayson is a psychologist, and would never put something up for people that were out of body, because he does no surgery, and is generally not around dying people. So yes, I would expect he would have no hits, sort of like puting out hay to attract elephants in the middle of New York. So much for your quote. Dr. Charles Tart has done research on this using subjects that can go out of body easily. He was successful. [http://www.near-death.com/tart.html](http://www.near-death.com/tart.html) I could never be on a level with you, so why bother. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/369 "2010-04-16T19:28:43Z")
Was Dr. Charles Tart heavily involved with that farce of an investigation involving Uri Geller at SRI back in 1975? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/370 "2010-04-16T19:32:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Someone has things all mixed up. Dr Bruce Grayson is a psychologist, and would never put something up for people that were out of body, because he does no surgery, and is generally not around dying people. So yes, I would expect he would have no hits, sort of like puting out hay to attract elephants in the middle of New York. So much for your quote. > > Dr. Charles Tart has done research on this using subjects that can go out of body easily. He was successful. > > [http://www.near-death.com/tart.html](http://www.near-death.com/tart.html) > > I could never be on a level with you, so why bother. Um… well… [This site says he’s a psychiatrist, not a psychologist.](http://www.parapsych.org/members/c_b_greyson.html) [This site describes how and where he applies the test .](http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=19&pageid=151&pgtype=1) > [@Description of the experiment](#): > > Bruce Greyson > > Doctor Bruce Greyson reported on his most recent research protocol, which is seeking to get empirical evidence of people having NDEs or OBEs during heart operations. This type of planned experiment may produce evidence that can address some of the consistent criticisms of skeptics of NDEs. Greyson is doing this research at the University of Virginia with patients receiving cardioverter-defibrillator implantations (a device that can monitor the heart rhythm). During the implantation operation, the doctors must induce a cardiac arrest in the patient to make sure the device is working properly, thus this operation provides a high percentage chance of invoking an NDE. > > Dr. Greyson’s research design involves putting unexpected visual targets in the operating room that can be seen only from above the operating table. An open laptop computer is placed above the operating table that randomly selects 12 images as it cycles through all of them. Before the operation starts, Greyson administers a battery of psychological tests and goes over a consent form, and then during the post-op phase he asks about how the procedure went and eventually asks the patient to guess what picture was being displayed on the lap-top. He also interviews them 6 months after the operation, because sometimes they remember things that happened during the procedure only after some time has passed. Greyson noted that there are very tight procedural controls on what he can say to the patients and also what types of patients can be allowed into the experimental pool. Which brings me to another point: Even though you constantly berate people about not reading your links and not engaging you on them, you never actually read the links others provide you! Have you ever heard the maxim “Do unto others..”? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/371 "2010-04-16T19:44:56Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > Um… well… > > [This site says he’s a psychiatrist, not a psychologist.](http://www.parapsych.org/members/c_b_greyson.html) > > [This site describes how and where he applies the test .](http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=19&pageid=151&pgtype=1) > > Which brings me to another point: Even though you constantly berate people about not reading your links and not engaging you on them, you never actually read the links others provide you! Have you ever heard the maxim “Do unto others..”? I read that he was head of the Psychology dept. of the University of Virginia, can’t believe everything you read. But Tart actually did have success. I have read that skeptical article many times, some of it is out of date. Dr. Karl Jansen no longer believes Ketamine can produce NDEs, and admits that there could be a spiritual dimension. I reviewed part of his book for him. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/372 "2010-04-16T19:49:32Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I read that he was head of the Psychology dept. of the University of Virginia, can’t believe everything you read. But Tart actually did have success. > > I have read that skeptical article many times, some of it is out of date. Dr. Karl Jansen no longer believes Ketamine can produce NDEs, and admits that there could be a spiritual dimension. I reviewed part of his book for him. Could you provide us a link for that assertion(Dr. Karl’s conversion)? Also: has Dr. Tart followed up on his research on the one subject which your link says he tested? Has he tested more than one subject successfully? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/373 "2010-04-16T20:07:01Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > Could you provide us a link for that assertion(Dr. Karl’s conversion)? > > Also: has Dr. Tart followed up on his research on the one subject which your link says he tested? Has he tested more than one subject successfully? I don’t know just have to search as I did. Anyway it takes only one hit to show evidence. There are other researchers with a lot more hits. As for Jansen I couldn’t find the article I read but here is his email address if you want to ask him. It was published on the web for general use. [http://www.maps.org/kdreams/](http://www.maps.org/kdreams/) ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/374 "2010-04-16T21:37:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t know just have to search as I did. Anyway it takes only one hit to show evidence. There are other researchers with a lot more hits. > (snip) See? That’s exactly why I say you don’t “get” science. One hit proves absolutely nothing (from a scientific point of view). Experiments need to be repeatedly verifiable before they are accepted as valid data points, let alone needing a theory to explain them. Evidence: it doesn’t mean what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/375 "2010-04-16T22:36:05Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > And just out of curiosity: when was this? Do you happen to know if it had always been on the curriculum? PM sent. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/376 "2010-04-17T00:00:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > However, near death experience research does not consist of gathering anecdotes. It consist of much less than that. This may be my favorite \*\*lekatt \*\*quote of all time. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/377 "2010-04-17T01:06:06Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > See? That’s exactly why I say you don’t “get” science. > > One hit proves absolutely nothing (from a scientific point of view). Experiments need to be repeatedly verifiable before they are accepted as valid data points, let alone needing a theory to explain them. > > Evidence: it doesn’t mean what you think it means. Time is running out. [http://www.bignews.biz/?id=861642&keys=nde-woerlee-skeptic-tsakiris](http://www.bignews.biz/?id=861642&keys=nde-woerlee-skeptic-tsakiris) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/378 "2010-04-17T01:09:47Z")
> [@zagloba](#): > > This may be my favorite \*\*lekatt \*\*quote of all time. Doesn’t take much to please you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/379 "2010-04-17T01:48:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Time is running out. > > [http://www.bignews.biz/?id=861642&keys=nde-woerlee-skeptic-tsakiris](http://www.bignews.biz/?id=861642&keys=nde-woerlee-skeptic-tsakiris) You’re counting this as “evidence”, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/380 "2010-04-17T01:55:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I read that he was head of the Psychology dept. of the University of Virginia, can’t believe everything you read. But Tart actually did have success. > > I have read that skeptical article many times, some of it is out of date. Dr. Karl Jansen no longer believes Ketamine can produce NDEs, and admits that there could be a spiritual dimension. I reviewed part of his book for him. > [@lekatt](#): > > Someone has things all mixed up. Dr Bruce Grayson is a psychologist, and would never put something up for people that were out of body, because he does no surgery, and is generally not around dying people. So yes, I would expect he would have no hits, sort of like puting out hay to attract elephants in the middle of New York. So much for your quote. > > Dr. Charles Tart has done research on this using subjects that can go out of body easily. He was successful. > > [http://www.near-death.com/tart.html](http://www.near-death.com/tart.html) You’re confused. It’s Tart that’s a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. Has Dr. Tart managed to stay awake for any other tests? > [@](#): > > An intercom system allowed hearing anything the subject said. I monitored the recording equipment throughout the night while the subject slept and kept notes of anything she said or did. **Occasionally I dozed during the night, beside the equipment, so possible instances of sleep talking might have been missed.** The subject slept on a comfortable bed just below the observation window. > [@](#): > > These were copied with a black marking pen, in figures approximately two inches high, onto a small piece of paper. Thus they were quite discrete visually. I know this is nitpicky, but how is 2 inch high black numbers discrete? For reference, the fourth line on a Snellen Eye Chart is about 2 inches high (50 mm.) and you should be able to read that at 50 ft. away. Dr. Tart indicates that the EEG picked up some artifact on the night that the subject reported the OBE: > [@](#): > > On reporting to the laboratory on the fourth night, Miss Z seemed to be determined to have the right kind of out-of-body experience. Although I had indicated complete satisfaction with her performance so far, she was angry at herself because she had not been able to float up and read the target number. Miss Z went quickly to sleep, entering Stages 3 and 4 less than fifteen minutes after going to bed. The night was uneventful for the most part - there were several Stage 1 dream periods in the first two-thirds of the night, as would be expected for any normal subject. After four and a half hours of sleep, she had a Stage 1 dream period with REMs which lasted for half an hour. \*\*The EEG was technically rather poor on this night, being obscured with a great deal of sixty cycle artifact and requiring rather heavy high frequency filtering to make it clear, so the EEG findings should be taken with the realization that they are subject to more error than usual. \*\* Note that he reports “a great deal of sixty cycle artifact” which is referenced earlier in the article with regard to the attachment of the EEG electrodes: > [@](#): > > The leads from all electrodes were bound into a common cable running off the top of her head, and terminating in an electrode box on the head of the bed. \*\*This arrangement allowed her enough slack wire so that she could turn over in bed and otherwise be comfortable, but did not allow her to sit up more than two feet without disconnecting the wires from the box, an event which would show up on the recording equipment as a tremendous amount of sixty cycle artifact. \*\*Thus her movements were well controlled. Finally, Dr. Tart seems to qualify his findings to the extent that he (rightly) does not present this test as conclusive: > [@](#): > > As a first alternative to an explanation involving extrasensory perception, we decided that “sophisticated” cheating by Miss Z was not impossible. She might have concealed mirrors and reaching rods in her pajamas and used these during the period when the EEG was difficult to classify (due to movement artifacts) to read the number. While this is possible, I personally doubt that it occurred. The second alternative is that she might have seen the number reflected in the surface of the case of the clock which was mounted on the wall above it. This was the only reflecting surface in the room placed in such a way that this might have been possible. Both Dr. Hastings and I spent some time in the dimly lit room to dark-adapt our eyes, and tried to read a number from the subject’s position on the bed, as reflected on the surface of the clock. As the room was dimly lit and the surface of the clock was black plastic, we could not see anything of the number. However, when we shone a flashlight directly on the number (increasing its brightness by a factor somewhere between several hundred and several thousand) we could just make out what the number was in the much brighter reflection. Thus, although it seems unlikely, one could argue that the number constituted a “subliminal” stimulus in its reflection off the clock surface. **Therefore, Miss Z’s reading of the target number cannot be considered as providing conclusive evidence for a parapsychological effect.** Thus, the article demonstrates: 1. The research falls asleep during the test and hence, does not fully monitor the test. 2. The target numbers are written large enough to see from 50 ft away and placed on a high shelf next to a reflective surface. 3. The EEG records artifacts that can be caused by the significant movement of the subject. 4. The researcher finds that the results of the test are not conclusive evidence for a parapsychological effect. Lastly, you were asked to provide evidence of research on NDE which shows that consciousness works independently of the brain. Seeing as how the subject of this research was not experiencing near death, nor was her brain ever in jeopardy of not functioning normally, it’s obvious this is a poor choice of articles to demonstrate NDEs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=20)