# Lekatt's Thread: The \*only\* place to find out about Lekatt's beliefs! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273 "2010-04-07T14:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/381 "2010-04-17T10:46:53Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You’re confused. It’s Tart that’s a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. Has Dr. Tart managed to stay awake for any other tests? > > I know this is nitpicky, but how is 2 inch high black numbers discrete? For reference, the fourth line on a Snellen Eye Chart is about 2 inches high (50 mm.) and you should be able to read that at 50 ft. away. > > Dr. Tart indicates that the EEG picked up some artifact on the night that the subject reported the OBE: > Note that he reports “a great deal of sixty cycle artifact” which is referenced earlier in the article with regard to the attachment of the EEG electrodes: > > Finally, Dr. Tart seems to qualify his findings to the extent that he (rightly) does not present this test as conclusive: > > Thus, the article demonstrates: > > 1. The research falls asleep during the test and hence, does not fully monitor the test. > 2. The target numbers are written large enough to see from 50 ft away and placed on a high shelf next to a reflective surface. > 3. The EEG records artifacts that can be caused by the significant movement of the subject. > 4. The researcher finds that the results of the test are not conclusive evidence for a parapsychological effect. > > Lastly, you were asked to provide evidence of research on NDE which shows that consciousness works independently of the brain. Seeing as how the subject of this research was not experiencing near death, nor was her brain ever in jeopardy of not functioning normally, it’s obvious this is a poor choice of articles to demonstrate NDEs. The purpose of the research was to show evidence of a non-local consciousness, which it did. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/382 "2010-04-17T11:02:23Z")
What is your ultimate goal, **lekatt**? The website, the messageboard posts, all of your efforts to spread your beliefs about NDE’s; what is your objective ? To convince skeptics? To comfort NDE survivors? To start a new spiritual movement? Just what are you trying to achieve? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/383 "2010-04-17T12:08:45Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The purpose of the research was to show evidence of a non-local consciousness, which it did. You claim this despite the fact, as noted, that the researcher himself, Dr. Tart, indicates this test was not conclusive. What do you know about it that Dr. Tart doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/384 "2010-04-17T12:44:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What is your ultimate goal, **lekatt**? The website, the messageboard posts, all of your efforts to spread your beliefs about NDE’s; what is your objective ? To convince skeptics? To comfort NDE survivors? To start a new spiritual movement? Just what are you trying to achieve? My purpose is to help others. I can’t do that as long as they believe there is no future, or hope. People who believe they are in this world as the result of an accident have no hope and no future, no reason to be kind to one another. No reason to be honest. When they realize they are connected to a bigger picture then they have a reason to be peaceful and happy. Science is wrong, and hurting millions of people by their false teachings. The suicide rate has tripled, the violence in schools has more than doubled. People with no future are desparate people. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/385 "2010-04-17T14:52:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > My purpose is to help others. I can’t do that as long as they believe there is no future, or hope. People who believe they are in this world as the result of an accident have no hope and no future, no reason to be kind to one another. No reason to be honest. Future of what? Hope for what? Are you really saying that people who don’t believe in life after death have no reason to be kind and honest? On what do you base this opinion? > [@lekatt](#): > > The suicide rate has tripled I realize you were distinctly vague, but [since when](http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#death-rates)? [[QUOTE=suicide.org](http://QUOTE=suicide.org)] Note that: The suicide rate has \*\*decreased \*\*from the 1950-1980 rate of 13.2 to the present rate of about 11. The suicide rate for ages 5-24 (youth suicide) increased dramatically from 1950 to the early to mid 1990s but then began to \*\*decrease \*\*thereafter. The suicide rate for ages 45-85+ **decreased significatnly** from 1950 to present. [/quote] > [@lekatt](#): > > the violence in schools has more than doubled. Again, vague, but is that [a fact](http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-statistics.html)? > [@](#): > > Contrary to public perception, violent crime in schools has declined dramatically since 1994. The annual rate of serious violent crime in 2005 (5 per 1,000 students) > > These data are victim reports collected as part of the National Crime Victimization Survey and are not derived from school records. This was the first Google hit, incidentally. > [@lekatt](#): > > People with no future are desparate people. In your straw-grasping with respect to research on NDEs, it seems you are more desperate than anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/386 "2010-04-17T15:00:04Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > [QUOTE=lekatt] > The purpose of the research was to show evidence of a non-local consciousness, which it did. You claim this despite the fact, as noted, that the researcher himself, Dr. Tart, indicates this test was not conclusive. What do you know about it that Dr. Tart doesn’t? [/QUOTE] So, do you have an answer to this question? I realize you must have \*\*Czarcasm \*\*on ignore because you’ve ceased to address any of his questions, difficult as they must be for you, but am I to assume you’ve added me to this illustrious list? Wait, don’t answer that. It would be unsportsmanlike and therefore, against the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/387 "2010-04-17T16:02:55Z")
I’ve added pretty much all I can in this thread (and **Brown Eyed Girl** is doing a bang-up job of continuing to fight ignorance - when it was clear that **lekatt** still didn’t appreciate the definitions of scientific terminology I was all ready to try again, but it was already taken care of), but I just want to add that this sentence made me weep: > [@lekatt](#): > > My purpose is to help others. I can’t do that as long as they believe there is no future, or hope. People who believe they are in this world as the result of an accident have no hope and no future, no reason to be kind to one another. No reason to be honest. When they realize they are connected to a bigger picture then they have a reason to be peaceful and happy. **Science is wrong, and hurting millions of people by their false teachings.** The suicide rate has tripled, the violence in schools has more than doubled. People with no future are desparate people. Modern science and the scientific method was, after fierce debate and much trial and error, [formulated](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_scientific_method#Integrating_deductive_and_inductive_method) in the mid 18th century, during the Age of Enlightenment (which, among other things gave us the concepts of things like the United States of America…it’ll never catch on). Now, take a look at [this](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol296/issue5570/images/data/1029/DC1/1069675S5_large.jpeg) graph of average lifespan over the years. Notice a trend? This is \*not \*a coincidence, but the result of exhaustive research and progress in the field of medicine I mentioned earlier, all made possible by the scientific method. If you’re asking ‘sure, but what have they done for me _lately?_’, well, research is ongoing on things [like cancer](http://www.pharmacyeurope.net/default.asp?title=Prostatecancertrialbreakthrough&page=article.display&article.id=21094), increasing our knowledge and ultimately benefiting humanity, as it has demonstrably done in the past. Being against ‘science’ is being against the progress of humanity. I’d also ask that you really go back over the thread and try and answer questions posed and points raised in opposition, other than copy and pasting the same bold assertion of “I know, therefore you’re wrong. Look at the anecdotal evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/388 "2010-04-17T16:19:44Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > My purpose is to help others. I can’t do that as long as they believe there is no future, or hope. People who believe they are in this world as the result of an accident have no hope and no future, no reason to be kind to one another. No reason to be honest. When they realize they are connected to a bigger picture then they have a reason to be peaceful and happy. Science is wrong, and hurting millions of people by their false teachings. The suicide rate has tripled, the violence in schools has more than doubled. People with no future are desparate people. I find it interesting that you believe science is wrong when it runs counter to your beliefs yet you try and pass off the supposed research on NDEs that support your claims as science. You state that people who believe in life after death will be peaceful and happy. How many people have been killed for not believing in the scientific method? Compare that number to the number of people [killed](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36612266/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/)by those who [believe](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iNCU46VYMVf0VzhqkKJUus45PrDAD9ETOKLG4)in [life](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/24/iraq.main/index.html)after death\*. I always find it interesting that those who are religious or believe in life after death somehow think that life after death would make this life more meaningful. I totally disagree. In fact, it makes this life \*less \*meaningful. We’ve got one chance it get it right. There is no payoff from some god for doing the right things. There is this life and its meaning will come from how you live it. The reason to be peaceful and happy is that you don’t get a second chance or some glorious reward when you die. Slee - I could, obviously, go on with tons of links about religiously motivated killing. But it is a Saturday and that is a bummer of a subject. You should get the point… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/389 "2010-04-17T17:00:30Z")
If science is nothing but supposition and vague theories, and all it does is harm people, does that include all the supposed “science” that convinced _you_, **lekatt**? Is your research supposition and vague theories? Are the scientists you link to hurting people? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/390 "2010-04-17T18:16:25Z")
From Wikipedia > [@](#): > > [edit] 2007 study > On September 6, 2007, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported suicide rate in American adolescents (especially girls, 10 to 24 years old) increased 8% (2003 to 2004), the largest jump in 15 years. Specifically, in 2004 - 4,599 suicides in Americans ages 10 to 24, up from 4,232 in 2003, for a rate of 7.32 per 100,000 people that age. Before, the rate dropped to 6.78 per 100,000 in 2003 from 9.48 per 100,000 in 1990. The findings also reported that antidepressant drugs were more likely to reduce suicide risk than increase it. Psychiatrists found that the increase is due to the decline in prescriptions of antidepressant drugs like Prozac to young people since 2003, leaving more cases of serious depression untreated. In a December 2006 study, The American Journal of Psychiatry said that a decrease in antidepressant prescriptions to minors of just a few percentage points coincided with a 14 percent increase in suicides in the United States; in the Netherlands, the suicide rate was 50% up, upon prescription drop.[6] Depends on where you look. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/391 "2010-04-17T18:22:50Z")
lekatt, a person simply believing something is true does not make true. If we want to learn if what we believe is true, we need an objective method of investigation. That is why we use the scientific method. Or to put it another way, asdgf awertald waegthv awerth asdtt. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/392 "2010-04-17T18:57:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > From Wikipedia > > Depends on where you look. If that was a scientific study, why do you trust it? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/393 "2010-04-17T19:13:44Z")
Antidepressants: brought to you by [del]pharmaceutical science[/del], no, spirituality. Wait, no that can’t be right. So, your quote (the link to which you’ve conveniently not provided) attributes an 8% rise in suicide among American adolescents (aged 10-24)\* to decline in prescription of anti-depressant medication to combat depression. First off, your math is bad if you think +8% equates to tripling. Your link also does not, of course include any information at all on any other age group. Why leave those age groups out? Well, because it doesn’t support your statement. Let’s review it, shall we? [QUOTE=lekatt] My purpose is to help others. I can’t do that as long as they believe there is no future, or hope. **People who believe** they are in this world as the result of an accident have no hope and no future, no reason to be kind to one another. No reason to be honest. When they realize they are connected to a bigger picture then they have a reason to be peaceful and happy. Science is wrong, and hurting \*\*millions of people \*\*by their false teachings. The suicide rate has tripled, the violence in schools has more than doubled. **People with no future** are desparate people. [/QUOTE] See how you kept saying “people” (I bolded it for you to make it easier to determine who you were presenting as hopeless and, presumably therefore prone to suicide. Where did mention adolescents or girls aged 10-24? Why does this matter? Well, because if you had looked at the chart I linked to refuting your generalized, vague claim ([here it is again](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779940.html)), you’d have noticed that overall the suicide rate has declined. You would have also noticed that again from 2004 to 2005 the very age group your link addresses (well, mostly) – ages 15-24 – has also shown a decline in suicide. Essentially, you cherry-picked some text that seemed to agree with you (although it didn’t unless you discount math) and used that to justify your worldview. Sorry, though, it doesn’t work that way for rational, thoughtful people. But let’s get back to your premise. You allude that science is giving people no hope thus leading to suicide and violence. Please explain (coherently, if you can) how science has contributed to this actual overall decline in suicide and school violence (which I noticed you didn’t acknowledge). If you can’t do that, let’s try a different tack. Please explain how the spirit world came up with pharmaceuticals that have reduced suicide due to major depressive illness, which you seem to demonstrated with your link. If we are to accept your premise, science is bad and can claim no good from that. \*Since when is the early 20s considered adolescence? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/394 "2010-04-17T19:22:10Z")
My bad. The chart I actually linked to in my first response is from [here](http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#death-rates) and only covers 1950-2003. The second chart, via infoplease, includes data from 2004 and 2005. Both charts are compiled from information from the Centers for Disease Control. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/395 "2010-04-17T19:23:58Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I realize you must have \*\*Czarcasm \*\*on ignore because you’ve ceased to address any of his questions, difficult as they must be for you, but am I to assume you’ve added me to this illustrious list? I thought one could not put moderators on ignore. The most likely explanation is that **lekatt** is just blowing the questions off after reading them and then realizing that he has no actual answer. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/396 "2010-04-17T19:32:01Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I thought one could not put moderators on ignore. Good point. Hadn’t thought of that. > [@](#): > > The most likely explanation is that **lekatt** is just blowing the questions off after reading them and then realizing that he has no actual answer. Huh. It hasn’t stopped him from pulling ridiculous answers out of his ass replying to others, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/397 "2010-04-17T22:34:29Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Both charts are compiled from information from the Centers for Disease Control. Ah \*HAH!! \*More scientists! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/398 "2010-04-18T00:04:17Z")
Suicide and schools shootings are related. They are violence turned inward and outward. They are done by people who feel they have no options, no way out, they are without hope for the future. They want to wreck people who treated them unjustly and know the law will never do it, and since God doesn’t exist He won’t either. Years ago people could look over injustice believing that God would right all wrongs so they didn’t need to. “Vengence is mine saith the Lord, I will repay.” Believing that was consoling and allowed patience in the face of evil. Now the anger builds and builds until it explodes, after all science says God doesn’t exist. No higher power to come to the rescue, no John Wayne and the horse soldiers. So if God does not exist, then God won’t punish them either if they act in vigilante style to right the wrongs they perceive done to them. Doesn’t matter whether the injustices were real or not, only if they were perceived as real. When I was going to school, there were no schools guards, no metal detectors, no bomb threats, only a fist fight once in a while. Yes, science remove the higher law, the higher judge, and now it’s everyone for themselves. Notice people are now allowed to carry concealed guns again. Well the higher power is still in place and still takes care of business. > **[Life's a Bitch, then you die.](https://aleroy.com/bitch.htm)** > > Life's a Bitch, then you die. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/399 "2010-04-18T00:37:39Z")
Well, it appears \*\*lekatt \*\*has run out of research. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273/400 "2010-04-18T00:43:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Does your web browser exist? Of course. It is encoded into computer switches that indicate either “1” or “0”, or else they are encoded into ferrous particles which point this way or that, indicating “1” or “0”. The whole system is vast of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lekatts-thread-the-only-place-to-find-out-about-lekatts-beliefs/535273.md?page=21)