# length of legal opinions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574 "2003-10-20T20:46:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/1 "2003-10-20T20:46:46Z")
Very brief. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DaddyTimesTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@DaddyTimesTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaddyTimesTwo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/2 "2003-10-20T20:59:31Z")
Interesting. I guess if you see that error page when starting a thread it can get lost. OK, why are legal opinions so freaking long? News stories in the paper say that “in Judge Smith’s 1200 page opinion…”. Judge Smith didn’t write 1200 pages, did he? I’m assuming that there are 1185 pages of cites and quotations. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/3 "2003-10-20T21:00:58Z")
As long as the judge wants. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/4 "2003-10-20T21:08:01Z")
> [@](#): > > OK, why are legal opinions so freaking long? Generally, they’re not that freaking long. > [@](#): > > News stories in the paper say that “in Judge Smith’s 1200 page opinion…”. Really? Cite please. > [@](#): > > Judge Smith didn’t write 1200 pages, did he? I’m assuming that there are 1185 pages of cites and quotations. Yes? No. In the last 75-page opinion that I read (and it’s a rare opinion that’s that long), there were only about five or so pages of endnotes. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/5 "2003-10-20T21:35:23Z")
Judicial opinions lay out the analysis that the judge undergoes. In a complicated case with many issues in the table, that analysis takes several pages. Nonetheless, even in complex cases most opinions aren’t more than, say, 20 or 30-something pages long. OTOH, in those same complex cases, other judges on the panel are likely to have concurring or dissenting opinions of their own which add to the length of the opinion. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![constantine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@constantine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constantine)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/6 "2003-10-20T23:42:30Z")
These days, most judicial opinions are not written by judges themselves, but by their law clerks, who are recent law school graduates. There is very little premium placed on elegance and much emphasis placed (by default if not by conscious design) on plodding through the facts and the legal issues. In other words, the clerks just want to make sure they don’t leave anything out. They are “graded” on completeness and thoroughness, not brevity. A few federal judges, notably Richard Posner and Frank Easterbrook of the 7th Circuit and Alex Kozinski of the 9th Circuit, still write their own opinions. ---
**Author:** ![TexGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9d8465/32.png) [@TexGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/7 "2003-10-20T23:47:57Z")
As a current first-year law student, I have the opportunity to lament the length of judicial opinions on a daily basis. 🙂 A professor of mine told our class that judicial opinions have become much longer in the last 20 years since what used to take a long time to research in books and type out on a manual typewriter can now be done in a few mouse clicks. He said that in the time it used to take to cite and analyze 1 case, you can Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V many, many more citations I don’t have any quantitative data to back this up but I do know that of the cases I’ve read, the ones from more than about 30 years ago tend to be quick and to the point while the more recent opinions tend to be much longer and cite many more cases. Another explanation, of course, would be that there are more and more cases decided every year, so there are more and more relevant opinions to cite… ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/8 "2003-10-21T00:44:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by constantine \* > **These days, most judicial opinions are not written by judges themselves, but by their law clerks, who are recent law school graduates.** Typically, these law clerks are devastatingly attractive and loads of fun at parties. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![constantine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@constantine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constantine)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/9 "2003-10-21T06:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pravnik \* > \*\*Typically, these law clerks are devastatingly attractive and loads of fun at parties. 😉 \*\* I thought about mentioning this, but assumed that it was already common knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/10 "2003-10-21T06:21:34Z")
For a case involving patent law or somesuch you may see a couple hundred pages of technical data; otherwise, any opinion over 30 or so pages is just ridiculously long and seems to suggest that the judge can’t figure out what the issue is in the case at hand… ---
**Author:** ![nolitai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@nolitai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nolitai)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/11 "2003-10-21T09:42:10Z")
In Australia, the record for length probably goes to the 2,000 page decision in 2001 where a judge of the New South Wales Supreme Court awarded prominent Sydney lawyer, John Marsden, almost $600,000 in damages after finding that a television station broadcast two defamatory programs alleging John Marsden had sex with underage boys. However, this complex case was heard over a record 229 hearing days, under a system not found anywhere else in Australia, or indeed in any other part of the common law system. See Transcript from [http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/s320016.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/s320016.htm) 27/6/2001 Marsden wins defamation case against Channel 7 JOHN MARSDEN: No amount of money, no matter what it could be, can compensate me for the anguish, the pain, the humiliation of the past few years. No sum will restore me in any way to the position I was in before these outrageous allegations. They were homophobic and that’s what they were intended to be. TRACY BOWDEN: Six years and 6 million dollars after launching a defamation action against Channel 7, judgment day for Sydney’s solicitor, John Marsden. JOHN MARSDEN: I think I’ve fought a David and Goliath battle in which the fight of corporate wealth was to delay, frustrate, and if this case shows nothing it shows there is no equality before our present legal system. PETER MANNING, FORMER EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, ‘WITNESS’: It was a matter of public importance. He was the head of the Law Society. He is a major power figure in our society. It was a matter of particular public – particular – it was a matter of particular public concern, if there was any truth to the allegations of paedophilia. JIM MARSDEN, BROTHER AND LEGAL PARTNER: It’s been a very arduous six years. It’s had a significant impact on family, friends, our firm and right now I’m absolutely delighted, elated with the verdict. TRACY BOWDEN: Marsden versus Amalgamated Television Services, or Channel 7. It’s been an astonishing court case on a number of fronts. 229 hearing days. 113 witnesses. Millions in legal costs, and today a weighty judgment of more than 2,000 pages. PROFESSOR MICHAEL CHESTERMAN, UNIVERSITY OF NSW: I can’t think of any other NSW case or indeed Australian case that’s got anywhere near that number of days of hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/12 "2003-10-21T12:50:25Z")
One other aspect is the way “pages” are counted - from my experience. When Appellate Courts publish opinions, they are printed in these little booklets, maybe 8"x6". District court opinions are generally double spaced. In the official reporters, all opinions are single spaced, 2 columns per page. I frequently encounter district court judges and magistrate judges who feel compelled to issue 30 page decisions on very run-of-the-mill cases. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/13 "2003-10-21T14:12:47Z")
It also depends on the nature of the ruling. If the ruling is a decision from a bench trial, then the judge may be compelled to make a very detailed finding of fact, in a long case there may have been dozens of witnesses, the judge can’t simply say, “Defendant wins” and leave no grounds for an appeal. The judge has to say what she found the facts to be, and then explain how the law applied to those facts. Having said all that, I don’t think 1,200 page decisions are all that common. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/14 "2003-10-21T18:34:48Z")
As a slight hijack, I would like to give props to Justice Clyde Kuehn of the Fifth Appellate District of Illinois. He writes his own opinions, and inserts some of the more sardonic and dryly witted commentary it’s ever been my pleasure to read. In one case, an accused home intruder was identified by a police officer using the aid of a police dog named Cain. Cain tracked a path from the home’s front door to a point a few blocks away - the same point at which the accused had been arrested moments ago by police combing the area looking for someone of the defedant’s description. At trial, the officer testified at length about his dog’s performance, including what the dog thought about his own performance, all without objection from defense counsel. On appeal, the defendant raised two points of error: whether the admission of the dog evidence was proper, and whether he suffered from ineffective assistance of counsel due to his attorney’s failure to object. Justice Kuehn’s opinion begins: “This case features the mark of Cain and questions whether counsel was able.” The case is People v. Lefler. It would have been in the 1997-99 timeframe, if you want to hunt it down. It’s brilliant writing. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/15 "2003-10-21T22:35:47Z")
Worth a read. It’s at 294 Ill.App.3d 305, 689 N.E.2d 1209, 228 Ill.Dec. 788 (5th Dist 1998). I liked this statement of the issue presented to the Appellate Court: “On appeal, defendant raises Cain.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/16 "2003-10-22T02:12:35Z")
I looked it up again, just for the sheer joy of the read. Another favorite line… when analyzing the claim of ineffective assistance of counsel, Justice Kuehn comments dryly on the defense lawyer’s silence during the trial: > [@](#): > > Here, the march to verdict engages a parade of unconstrained error that defense counsel witnesses from the sidelines as a silent spectator. The prosecutor’s opening statement employs argument, his direct examination repeatedly shapes testimony with leading questions, and on several occasions, he elicits improper hearsay evidence. The record is replete with unchecked violations of established evidentiary rules. Justice Kuehn is a true asset to the legal world of Illinois. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/17 "2003-10-22T02:25:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by constantine \* > \*\* > A few federal judges, notably Richard Posner and Frank Easterbrook of the 7th Circuit and Alex Kozinski of the 9th Circuit, still write their own opinions. \*\* Posner is brilliant. But I like Kozinski. He ended the Mattel v. MCA records case with the following: “The parties are advised to chill.” ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/18 "2003-10-22T03:27:46Z")
A discussion of fine judicial writing can’t go without some words of wisdom from the esteemed [Lord Denning, MR](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Denning): > [@](#): > > “In summertime village cricket is a delight to everyone. Nearly every village has its own cricket field where the young men play and the old men watch. In the village of Lintz in the County of Durham they have their own ground, where they have played these last 70 years. They tend it well. The wicket area is well rolled and mown. The outfield is kept short. It has a good clubhouse for the players and seats for the onlookers. The village team plays there on Saturdays and Sundays. They belong to a league, competing with the neighbouring villages. On other evenings they practice while the light lasts. Yet now after these 70 years a judge of the High Court has ordered that they must not play anymore. He has issued an injunction to stop them. He has done it at the instance of a newcomer who is no lover of cricket. This newcomer has built, or has had built for him, a house on the edge of the cricket ground which four years ago was a field where cattle grazed. The animals did not mind the cricket, but now this adjoining field has been turned into a housing estate. The newcomer bought one of the houses on the edge of the cricket field. No doubt the open space was a selling point. Now he complains that when a batsman hits a six the ball has been known to land in his garden or on or near his house. His wife has got so upset about it that they always go out at weekends. They do not go into the garden when cricket is being played. They say that this is intolerable. So they asked the judge to stop the cricket being played. And the judge, much against his will, has felt that he must order the cricket to be stopped: with the consequence, I suppose, that the Lintz Cricket Club will disappear. The cricket ground will be turned to some other use. I expect for houses or a factory. The young men will turn to other things instead of cricket. The whole village will be much poorer. And all this because of a newcomer who has just bought a house there next to the cricket ground.”: **Miller v Jackson (1977) Q.B. 966, 976** ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/19 "2003-10-22T04:14:52Z")
For a funny read, also see Smith v. Colonial Penn\* 943 F.Supp 782 - the background is that the defendant insurance company (from New England) wants to transfer venue to be closer to the airport in Houston, the Galveston Judge is not ammused, nor is he impressed: > [@](#): > > Defendant should be assured that it is not embarking on a three- week-long trip via covered wagons when it travels to Galveston. Rather, Defendant will be pleased to discover that the highway is paved and lighted all the way to Galveston, and thanks to the efforts of this Court’s predecessor, Judge Roy Bean, the trip should be free of rustlers, hooligans, or vicious varmints of unsavory kind. Moreover, the speed limit was recently increased to seventy miles per hour on most of the road leading to Galveston, so Defendant should be able to hurtle to justice at lightning speed. To assuage Defendant’s worries about the inconvenience of the drive, the Court notes that Houston’s Hobby Airport is located about equal drivetime from downtown Houston and the Galveston courthouse. Defendant will likely find it an easy, traffic- free ride to Galveston as compared to a congested, construction-riddled drive to downtown Houston. The Court notes that any inconvenience suffered in having to drive to Galveston may likely be offset by the peacefulness of the ride and the scenic beauty of the sunny isle. And, who can forget Washington v. Alaimo, 934 F.Supp 1395 (1996) the infamous “Motion to Kiss My Ass” case. You will never find a better illustration of abuse of process. The first time I read that one, I cried I laughed so hard. Good times, good times. /law school geek ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574/20 "2003-10-22T04:34:26Z")
UNITED STATES ex rel. Gerald MAYO v. SATAN AND HIS STAFF > [@](#): > > Plaintiff, alleging jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. § 241, 28 U.S.C. § 1343, and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 prays for leave to file a complaint for violation of his civil rights _[\*283]_ in forma pauperis. He alleges that Satan has on numerous occasions caused plaintiff misery and unwarranted threats, against the will of plaintiff, that Satan has placed deliberate obstacles in his path and has caused plaintiff’s downfall. > > Plaintiff alleges that by reason of these acts Satan has deprived him of his constitutional rights. > > We feel that the application to file and proceed in forma pauperis must be denied. Even if plaintiff’s complaint reveals a prima facie recital of the infringement of the civil rights of a citizen of the United States, the Court has serious doubts that the complaint reveals a cause of action upon which relief can be granted by the court. We question whether plaintiff may obtain personal jurisdiction over the defendant in this judicial district. The complaint contains no allegation of residence in this district. While the official reports disclose\_[\*\*2]\_ no case where this defendant has appeared as defendant there is an unofficial account of a trial in New Hampshire where this defendant filed an action of mortgage foreclosure as plaintiff. The defendant in that action was represented by the preeminent advocate of that day, and raised the defense that the plaintiff was a foreign prince with no standing to sue in an American Court. This defense was overcome by overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Whether or not this would raise an estoppel in the present case we are unable to determine at this time. > > If such action were to be allowed we would also face the question of whether it may be maintained as a class action. It appears to meet the requirements of Fed.R. of Civ.P. 23 that the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable, there are questions of law and fact common to the class, and the claims of the representative party is typical of the claims of the class. We cannot now determine if the representative party will fairly protect the interests of the class. > > We note that the plaintiff has failed to include with his complaint the required form of instructions for the United States Marshal for directions\_[\*\*3]\_ as to service of process. > > For the foregoing reasons we must exercise our discretion to refuse the prayer of plaintiff to proceed in forma pauperis. > > It is ordered that the complaint be given a miscellaneous docket number and leave to proceed in forma pauperis be denied. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/length-of-legal-opinions/208574.md?page=2)