Lens & mirror drawing aid - what's it called? where to get?

So, mwbrooks, and anyone else who cares to comment, what would you choose for yourself- camera obscura or camera lucida?

I think I’d lean toward the camera lucida. If my wife goes to bed early tonight, I might order one. You can get a seemingly decent one for under $100.

Anyone see the one Hockney used for sale anywhere? I posted a half-vast pic it earlier today.

But how magical it must have been for people, say, in the time of Vermeer and earlier (and later, too), to see images in full color, with people moving across the screen!!

Hell, I’d be entranced even right now!! And by gum, I have seen TeeVee!!

I appreciate the OP and all the information, because even though I now have a touch of Parkinson’s (partially controlled with meds) I would like to get back to drawing/painting, and I think this is going to be of major assistance to me.

Thanks so much

Q

I wrote an article about this for Optics and Photonics News a few months ago (the July/August issue, if you can get one at the library. To read it online you have to be an OSA member). The Camera Lucida, as mentioned above, used to be sold in comic books (I have a few examples from the early 1960s), but now they’re kinda expensive. You can build themusing either mirrors or prisms.
It was invented between 1800 and 1806 by Henry Hyde Wollaston, who couldn’t draw, and came up with idea from looking at his reflection in a broken or bevelled mirror. He was delighted with the result. So was John Herschel, the astronomer. There was a special exhibition of his decades of camera lucida work, which has been published as a book, Tracings of Light by L.J. Schaaf. (I got a LOT of my information from this useful book)

For many years a Camera Lucida attachment was common on microscopes and telescopes , allowing the users to record what he saw before the invention of photography.

Interestingly, William Fox Talbot, one of the pioneers of photography, was moved to work at inventing it because he not only couldn’t draw without a camera lucida, he couldn’t draw WITH one, either. So he needed some other method of capturing images.
John Herschel, by the way, is the discoverer of “Hypo” (Sodium Thiosulfate, used in photography to “fix” images)

I hope you don’t mind my asking, Quasi, but what sites (online and other wise) are you considering?

Any idea where I can find the camera lucida that Hockney used? Or something similar? I Google, I fail.

I’m not sure I understand the question BarnOwl. Do you mean for the purchase of a Camera Lucida?

If so, it is the one you linked me to. :slight_smile:

Q

I trimmed this a bit, but I just wanted to say that if you had not quoted this, BarnOwl, I would not have given it a second thought! Guess that says a lot about my powers of observation, doesn’t it? :slight_smile:

Quasi

I’d just like to point out that, although Hockney caught a huge amount of flak for his theory, camera lucidas are VERY commonly used in art classes to teach students how to draw. And, as I note, the camera lucida was used by scientists to record accurate drawings precisely because some of them couldn’t draw. So there’s plenty of support for the use of the camera lucida and the camera obscura as drawing aids.

Of course, the counter-argument is that the Great Masters didn’t need to use such a “mechanical” crutch. But as far as I know, there isn’t any evidence that they would’ve viewed such devices as “crutches” themselves. Artists have classically been innovators who took advantage of new technology as it became available. Plenty of folks used grids and (mathematical) projections when the concepts of perspective were being explored, and no one has ever accused them of not using such equally “mechanical” devices as a cheat.

Even if Vermeer and others did use such optical means as an aid, it seems highly unlikely that they used it for the entire painting. I could see them settimng up the outline using it, but I suspect that they’d find it too time-consuming to use them as “tracing” methods. It’s be much faster for an experienced artist to do the bulk of the painting freehand, once he got it set up. The camera obscura and lucida migh even have been used only for preliminary sketches.

I don’t find the evidence from optical aberrations very convincing, either pro or con. And I don’t take it as given that artists of the period DID use these devices. But it would not have been imopossible, improbable, or to their detriment.

Some Camera Lucida links:

this one’s $360. That’s relatively cheap

http://www.camera-lucida.com/pages/470591/index.htm
This one’s about 100 pounds (money):

http://www.cameralucida.org.uk/
This Ebay site has them for about $100. Some of these don’t look like the Real Thing:

http://stores.ebay.com/Camera-Obscura-Lucida-Shop

Antique Camerae lucidae go for a couple of thousand dollars:

http://www.gilai.com/scripts/more/soi729-scioptical-Scientific:+Optical-no.html

http://www.gilai.com/scripts/more/soi728-scioptical-Scientific:+Optical-no.html

I believe the OP is describing an opaque projector
Here are plans for building one one-bay

You, me and a million others, Quasi.

You might want to stroll over to amazon to consider buying Secret Knowledge

…and while you’re there scroll down to read the customer reviews, particularly by Dudik and WiredWeird. Good stuff.

And which Camera Lucida are you considering? If I buy one, it’ll be this

(Went to bed early last night which is why I’m kinda behind.)

I watched the video, BarnOwl, and the one featured is the one I would like to buy.

Is the book Secret Knowledge a “how to” book or just an explanation of the history, BarnOwl?

I think a book on technique could be helpful! I am looking forward to sketching and painting again! I canot tell you how much this thread has meant to me!

Bill

It’s mostly history. In fact, I think there’s more instruction in the video than in Hockney’s book. But I found the book exciting as hell! The illustrations are gorgeous and Hockney’s argument is compelling - even if it’s mostly circumstantial.

If you do order the book at amazon, note that it is ‘new and improved’ with stuff in it that is not in older editions - like mine.

Sadly, I don’t know anything about drawing, Bill, so I cannot recommend books on the subject. But I am so happy for your getting back in the saddle.

Maybe an artistic Doper or 3 will pop in with book suggestions.

Skip

Just ducking my head back in to say I ordered the book from Amazon, BarnOwl!

I cannot wait to get started and once I get back from vacation, I will be buying art supplies again.

I am totally jazzed about this!

Thanks again you guys!

Bill

Anchor optics has many of the old Edmund optics books in pdf format, including " Homemade Camera Lucidia."

http://www.anchoroptics.com/documents/

What a great batch of info!

It looks to me like the drawing aid described in the “Homemade Camera Lucidia”, which the author points out is actually not a camera lucidia and names the “Mirror Lucidia”, would be pretty easy to build and to use, and most significantly that it would let you move your head around some without spoiling the effect - at least, if I understand it right. Though I think moving closer and further (in their sketch that would be moving your eye vertically) would make the relative scale change between your drawing and the image you see. It also looks to me like the mirror lucidia would blur things a little because the paper and the image would be at different distances. Some other device cited above uses a slightly curved surface, a mirror I think, to fix this.

CalMeacham, I am impressed no end. I actually read Optics and Photonics News occasionally, though I didn’t catch one this past summer. I’ll see if I can find it.

It is pleasant to see Edmund cropping up again. I had the pleasure of giving Bob Edmund a tour of a telescope I was doing variable star work with, about 30 years ago. This telescope, a camera with a guide scope, had a triplet lens of 8" clear aperture for the camera, made by Cook, and the guide scope had a 5" acromat made by none other than Alvin Clarke. They have grown from Edmund Salvage to Edmund Scientific to whatever deal it is they have now, having broken into several Edmunds plus this Anchor Optics. The Mad Scientist room at their Barrington location was always a pleasure. I haven’t ordered from them since, well, when was it? Yesterday afternoon, it turns out.

Picunurse, I think I remembered things wrong when I wrote my OP, so it did sound more like I want an opaque projector than anything else. But I’m pretty sure now it’s the camera lucidia or some variant on it that I was remembering.

All the stuff about funny perspective is interesting. There would be a subtle shift if the artist sat in the same position and worked with a camera lucidia that was below his line of sight to create parts of the drawing, and used his forward line of sight for other parts, like filling in a face. Other than that, though, I’m pretty sure the camera lucidia would not introduce any special distortion, and that you could take a picture with a film camera or digicam from the eye position and see what the camera lucidia was doing. Of course, you could introduce shift and tilt distortions with a camera lucidia the same way you would with a view camera.

Hey Napier -

I just bought the Camera Lucida shown at

Maybe in a couple of years, I’ll show you the stick figures I will by then draw as well as some 4th graders!. :slight_smile:

This one, Cal, looks very very much like the one Hockney uses.

http://www.gilai.com/scripts/more/soi729-scioptical-Scientific:+Optical-no.html

Somewhere along the line, I read that he paid tidy sum for it.

The picture of it that I posted earlier is not very clear. The same pic in Secret Knowledge is quite sharp.

I guess I’d have to say I already use a camera obscura. That’s essentially what I’m using when I trace a digicam picture in Illustrator. But I don’t do that for art; it’s just illustration.

If I were to try my hand at art, I would almost certainly try a camera lucida, if only to experiment with the sort of perspective distortion we’ve been discussing. Also it might help me learn to see things more with my eye, and less with my brain.

I might be a genius if I didn’t think so much.

Me too, but now that I’ve ordered a camera lucida, I might get a a small camera obscura down the line, for me and the grand kids to play with.

Another reason I am jazzed, is because it’s going to get me outdoors again, and that’s gonna be great, 'cause other than working, since my diagnosis, I’ve been cooped up in my apartment known as “The Hell Hole”:).

I’m only kidding about the apartment. It is actually pretty nice. It’s just that I’m like that Peanuts character Pig Pen? All I have to do to mess up a place, is walk in! :smiley:

God bless you, Napier!:slight_smile:

Bill