# Leon Panetta and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad CIA Program **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 10, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602 "2009-07-10T19:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/1 "2009-07-10T19:51:00Z")
[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/us/politics/10intel.html?hpw](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/us/politics/10intel.html?hpw) Boy, talk about burying the lede. The headline makes this all sound rather dull, just another committee meeting. > [@](#): > > …The nature of the program was the subject of speculation in Washington on Thursday but remained a mystery. Officials said it did not involve interrogation but declined to describe it further, saying the matter was highly sensitive and legitimately classified. > > Several members of Congress said the program, begun in the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, involved creating a capability that was never used. > > “There was talk, planning, maybe a little training,” said Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, the House committee’s ranking Republican. “But it was never executed.” > > Mr. Panetta “put a stake in the heart of it so that it would never come back,” Mr. Hoekstra said. > > Mr. Hoekstra said he believed Congress would not have approved of executing the plan. “Maybe on Sept. 12,” he said, but not later, when the fear of a wave of additional terrorist attacks began to diminish… Well, goody gumdrops! Whatever this really awful thing was, we didn’t do it, we were just thinking about doing it. Maybe getting ready to do it, if it turned out to be a really good idea, rather than a really bad one! My confidence is much restored! Two plausible prongs for debate. One, what do you think it was? (And please, none of the wildly implausible loony left ideas, OK? Just stick to the horrific, because all we got is that its likely worse than the stuff we already know, because they won’t tell us. Could just be an unauthorized bake sale, but I think we can safely ignore that.) Numero Two-o, should we be told? And who’s opinion on that do you trust? I’m assuming Barry-O has been told, and he hasn’t spilled the blood. Beans. Hasn’t spilled the beans. And, of course, the general, non-specific \*\*“WTF!!” \*\*might also be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/2 "2009-07-10T19:58:57Z")
I think it involved using a LA-ser. ---
**Author:** ![jk1245](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@jk1245](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jk1245)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/3 "2009-07-10T20:03:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think it involved using a LA-ser. Sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/4 "2009-07-10T20:05:29Z")
On the serious side… With it described as a “capability”, it doesn’t sound so much like Cheney’s private murder task force, but might be some other form of rendition. As to whether we should be told or not… only if it turns out to have been illegal. Otherwise, it’s a covert op and should be treated as any other undertaken by the executive branch. A good dose of Congressional oversight is due, but I’m not saying that means a whole hell of a lot these days. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/5 "2009-07-10T20:09:41Z")
I’m gonna say it involved cruise missles fitted with low-yield nuclear warheads. They would cruise to the edge of the atmosphere and generate an EMP to destroy the communications capability of small regions. They’d fry every cell phone, radio and car ignition in Afghanistan for instance. But it would kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians as water pumps and hospitals break down. Why? I dunno, because it’s cool. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/6 "2009-07-10T20:18:28Z")
Sending Osama some exploding cigars for his birthday? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/7 "2009-07-10T20:19:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sending Osama some exploding cigars for his birthday? 72 Exploding virgins? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/8 "2009-07-10T20:20:09Z")
Bill Clinton probably can spare a few. Though Osama might insist that they still be in the wrapper. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/9 "2009-07-10T21:08:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sending Osama some exploding cigars for his birthday? Didn’t the CIA lace a wet suit with fungus to kill Castro? Maybe we should send one of those to Osama. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/10 "2009-07-10T21:25:55Z")
This seems to be a poll speculating about something of which no one has the slightest information. I’m sure you good folks can find a way to fight over it, but until I see an actual thesis to debate, I will note that polls belong in **IMHO**. Off you go, ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/11 "2009-07-10T22:30:36Z")
Considering what they DID go ahead and do, it was probably pretty awful. I have trouble of thinking of worse things that the CIA could have done than it did; stuff like “round up all American Muslims into concentration camps” would be worse, but beyond the CIA’s scale. Plant nukes in foreign cities ? ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/12 "2009-07-11T01:28:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m gonna say it involved cruise missiles fitted with low-yield nuclear warheads. They would cruise to the edge of the atmosphere and generate an EMP to destroy the communications capability of small regions. They’d fry every cell phone, radio and car ignition in Afghanistan for instance. But it would kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians as water pumps and hospitals break down. The strength of EMP is dependent on the size and height of the detonation. As for the damage it causes, the smaller the device, the more prone to damage (e. g., transistor verses vacuum tube vs. electric motor). Also, whether or not the device is hardened against EMP or not. At least that’s what I remember about an EMP seminar given by some TRW guy back in college 30 years ago. The implication was you could crudely “tune” the amount of damage you caused. So while you knock out a cell phone (well, a boom box in those days), an electric water pump would be spared (can’t say I’ve been able to find a cite for this, but some US thermonuclear weapons have the ability to vary the yield of the explosion, so that’s how I came up with the possible rational behind it). Nobody in their right mind would have considered using nukes: 1) Did you note that most of Afghanistan is already in the Stone Age? 2) The PR fallout from that would have overshadowed 9-11 in a matter of days. Everybody would have wondered if we’d lost our minds and the other nuclear powers would be getting awfully nervous about our _real_ intentions. I would guess that the key phrase was > [@](#): > > when the fear of a wave of additional terrorist attacks began to diminish… I’ll give three guesses: 1) Quiet kidnappings of possible suspects within the US _sans habeus corpus_ followed by increasingly harsher interrogation. 2) Aggressively capturing or assassinating of known suspects and supporters in the US and outside. Or, 3) Grab overseas relatives of known terrorist and hold them hostage and execute them if they continue the attacks. And either some or all of the above (which I guess makes four guesses). Dirty, nasty, and seemingly reasonable right after the towers tumbled to the ground and 5000+ lives wasted (remember, the death tolls were thought to be higher immediately afterwards). And you expected more of the same for the foreseeable future (so much for pretending to be the impoverish man’s Tom Clancy). Sounds like to me the program was driven by panic with the rule of law along with oversight being tossed aside—all in the name of national security. Then cooler heads prevailed…but not for long ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leon-panetta-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-cia-program/502602/13 "2009-07-11T02:00:57Z")
I predict this will be a nothingburger. If it was never implemented, it was never implemented. The CIA is paid to think up crazy-ass schemes and study whether they would be effective, and if they had to brief Congress or God forbid the public on each one they would never produce anything worthwhile. Just because they can conceive of a plan doesn’t mean they would endorse it. Everyone has a plan they hope they never have to use, if you think hard enough. Back in the 40s, some kook wanted to put robotic cameras in a little pod, build a huge rocket to launch them hundreds of miles high, and take pictures of the Red Army and probably your wife as she steps out of the bath. Guy even claimed the contraption would go around and around the world indefinitely even without an engine of its own. That one would never have gotten past the Senate Armed Services Committee and the Huffington Post.