# LeRoy Neiman joins Thomas Kinkade in Bad Art Heaven **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833 "2012-06-21T12:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/21 "2012-06-21T15:33:14Z")
Sometimes I wonder if we need to redefine what “bad” art is. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/22 "2012-06-21T15:34:48Z")
If Leroy Neiman had done that Ingres drawing, he’d have used neon pencil for the lines in the lapels and sleeves, and left out the composition, modeling, lighting, facial characteristics, etc. But he’d have really made it vital with the neon pencils! ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/23 "2012-06-21T15:37:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Sometimes I wonder if we need to redefine what “bad” art is. No. We cannot risk violating the Geneva Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/24 "2012-06-21T15:48:06Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I love this description of Kinkade! And now I’ve got to get the idea of illustrating it in the style of LeRoy Neiman out of my head before bad things happen. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/25 "2012-06-21T15:48:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Geneva Conventions. _Drag name!_ ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/26 "2012-06-21T15:54:10Z")
Neiman’s style was too blinding to suit every subject, but he had serious talent. He could insert well-posed figures into a setting with a few quick strokes (or dribbles) of paint. **Slithy Tove:** I much prefer the E. deKooning JFK, but the Neiman seems to date from 2009, when Leroy was in his late 80s. Go back 30 years and I’m sure he could do a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/27 "2012-06-21T16:02:15Z")
If I had somebody to de-bitch me, I’d be a mime. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/28 "2012-06-21T16:46:17Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > I wouldn’t list him as Thomas Kinkade-bad. But he was the house artist for a house that didn’t know as much about art (and everything else) as it liked to think it did; the Playboy Mansion. Hardly the only person who sold his or her ass for a seat at Hefner’s free-hamburger banquet. > > Compare the [JFK portrait](http://www.centaurgalleries.com/Art/00126/48523d-0484x0600.jpg) by LeRoy Neiman, who had no credibility in the legitimate art world, with [Elaine de Kooning’s](http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/president/img_gal/9900196A.jpg), who did. Me, I see some difference, but not much. Really? I see a lot of difference, if you hadn’t told me the Neiman was Kennedy, I would have said it was anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/29 "2012-06-21T16:49:58Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > if you hadn’t told me the Neiman was Kennedy, I would have said it was anybody. I see it as his version of frame 313 of the Zapruder film. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/30 "2012-06-21T17:10:33Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I see it as his version of frame 313 of the Zapruder film. My dear, you are positively _en fuego_ in this thread. Folks may not like Rothko - but that is more based on “modern art isn’t really art” or “my kid could do that” types of feelings. I strongly disagree re: Rothko but get that YMMV. With Nieman, he had a “look” - and there’s a not so fine line between branding a look and having / exploring a style. Monet had a style and explored many different scenes and objects using that style. Neiman had a look and “Neimanized” anything he painted. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/31 "2012-06-21T17:30:41Z")
Neiman’s style captured the energy of sports action well. His work won’t be influential like the very “serious” artists, but he was good at what he did, and I don’t begrudge him his riches. His original paintings probably deserved in the low 5 figures. Besides, I agree with Steve Martin’s view of art - “I believe entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you’re an idiot.” What Leroy Neiman did wasn’t really deep, but it would have been wrong for him to do anything but what he did. Unlike Kinkade, who I think approached work cynically, intentionally producing “art lite” (and make sure it doesn’t clash with the sofa!). ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/32 "2012-06-21T19:49:21Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Someone once made a joke about producing a Mike Rothko Paint-by-Number set. That was MST3K, Episode 419, [The Rebel Set](http://mst3k.longhare.com/episode.php?id=91), thank you. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/33 "2012-06-21T20:02:51Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > \*\*I recognize his place in the world of art. As TEoBD observed, his biggest crime was being loved by people who admittedly didn’t know art. I’m reminded of something Norman Rockwell said: _ **I’m constantly meeting people who say “I don’t know much about art, but I love your work.” As if that’s a compliment! Occasionally, it would be nice to have someone say, " I know a LOT about art, and I love your work."** _ ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/34 "2012-06-21T20:04:32Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > No. We cannot risk violating the Geneva Conventions. I was WONDERING when someone would make a _ **Top Secret!** _ joke! ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/35 "2012-06-21T21:41:56Z")
I’m sort of relieved I’m not famous enough to have Eve write my obituary. That may have been “de-bitched”, but plenty of snark sure survived. His paintings sold for three figures, not counting the decimal point? I sniggered, but then I’m a big fan snark, and not of Neiman. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/36 "2012-06-22T00:21:34Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Neiman’s style was too blinding to suit every subject, but he had serious talent. He could insert well-posed figures into a setting with a few quick strokes (or dribbles) of paint. See also: ROCKY III. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/37 "2012-06-22T00:47:12Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Actually, with both Ingres and Holbein, I prefer his drawings to his paintings: [http://chawedrosin.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ingltier.jpg](http://chawedrosin.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ingltier.jpg) That is SO CUTE I think I might puke! (later, after puking) If one should care to join me in puking, there is Ingres’s [Napoleon Entroned](http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/98362/1/Napoleon-Enthroned.jpg). Not sickeningly kitschy like that baby’s face, but magnificently kitschy. I always like Neiman’s [Cannes Beauty Contest](http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d42048/d4204811r.jpg). I remembered it accurately for showing how beef was cheap in 1961 France, but I also remember more cellulite than it actually shows. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/38 "2012-06-22T01:15:01Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > I’m sort of relieved I’m not famous enough to have Eve write my obituary. {snip} The only way I’m going to be famous is if Eve DOES write my obituary. 😃 My life is eminently snark-worthy. ☹ ETA: When I read he had died I had a moment of stupidity and said, “I didn’t know he was still alive.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/39 "2012-06-22T02:23:40Z")
When I read he had died I said, “Didn’t he die two weeks ago?” I need to get into that Celebrity Deathpool except I needed to predict back in December and he wasn’t worth shit for points. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833/40 "2012-06-23T18:14:23Z")
A great appraisal of his work in an artistic and cultural context - in the NYTimes; not sure if it can be read without a subscription: [LeRoy Neiman and the Serious Art World - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/arts/design/leroy-neiman-and-the-serious-art-world.html?ref=arts). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leroy-neiman-joins-thomas-kinkade-in-bad-art-heaven/625833.md?page=3)