# LES MIZ: Did Enjolras and his crew deserve what they got? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 9, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442 "2013-09-09T21:33:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/41 "2013-09-12T17:46:44Z")
They made their choice to go down with their barricade. On two occasions, they had the option of not fighting to the death. Once the Army Officer told them “why throw your lives away” and again when they realized they were the last barricade and no one else was coming. > [@Dewey Finn View Post](#): > > By the way, in the scene at the beginning of the movie when Javert told Valjean to retrieve the flag, was Javert just expecting him to detach the flag from the mast and just bring it back or did he expect him to try to move the whole thing? Shit, that’s what I would have done. > [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > To move the whole thing. The point of it was to establish that Valjean was ridiculously strong, and that Javert knew it. Which only ever became relevant on one occasion. So that Monsieur le Mayor would remind Javert of Valjean when he lifted the cart off that guy. Right…because that’s how a detective recognizes people. By their super strength. Not their face, or their voice, or the fact that they’re the same age and height. Speaking of disguises, why did Eponine need to dress like a very pretty man at the barricade? So she could stay hidden from the one guy who barely notices her? And how does Marius go on with his life? This is a society where Javert is hounded his entire life for stealing a loaf of bread. But nothing happens to the sole survivor of an armed insurrection against the government? The authorities never investigate some guy with a gunshot wound dropped off at a hospital by a known felon on the same day as this barricade business? > [@Colibri](#): > > Since half the Bohemians were dying of AIDS, they’d be easier pushovers. People in Les Miserable don’t die of anything in particular (well maybe musketfire). It’s just “their time”. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/42 "2013-09-12T18:02:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Which only ever became relevant on one occasion. So that Monsieur le Mayor would remind Javert of Valjean when he lifted the cart off that guy. Right…because that’s how a detective recognizes people. By their super strength. Not their face, or their voice, or the fact that they’re the same age and height. In the movie, it’s just to quickly establish Valjean’s strength. In the novel, he’s just a brawny sumbitch and has a reputation as such among the prison/boat but Javert never gives him Feats of Strength to perform. I didn’t have the impression that Javert was actively hunting for Jean Valjean prior to the cart event and probably didn’t have much recollection of his face, etc. Rather, Javert sees Valjean lift the cart and says “Hey, that’s pretty extraordinary” and contacts his superiors to send out feelers. When they tell him they already caught fake-Valjean, Javert is satisfied with that news under the assumption that the other guy is Valjean. Javert as obsessed investigator doesn’t really happen until after Javert is made a fool of by “Monsieur le Mayor”. > [@](#): > > Speaking of disguises, why did Eponine need to dress like a very pretty man at the barricade? So she could stay hidden from the one guy who barely notices her? As I recall, Eponine was less disguised and more just boyish looking and typically mistaken as a common street urchin. Which was part of her insecurity vs Cosette when it came to Marius. This doesn’t translate well in the film with the attractive Barks playing the role. > [@](#): > > And how does Marius go on with his life? This is a society where Javert is hounded his entire life for stealing a loaf of bread. But nothing happens to the sole survivor of an armed insurrection against the government? There were multiple barricades and military actions. Marius may have been the sole survivor from that one barricade but there were other barricades, a chance for bystanders to be wounded, etc. Plus, Marius was upper class and his tier of personage likely had more sway than hobos who break into homes and steal bread. In any event, Javart might have been obsessed with finding Valjean for his own motivations but I doubt the 18-whatever version of the French FBI was papering the nation with Valjean “Wanted” posters. The Javert/Valjean relationship isn’t a good model for every criminal in the country. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/43 "2013-09-12T20:01:09Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > As I recall, Eponine was less disguised and more just boyish looking and typically mistaken as a common street urchin. Which was part of her insecurity vs Cosette when it came to Marius. This doesn’t translate well in the film with the attractive Barks playing the role. In the book, Eponine is specifically represented as a male “laborer” until her disguise is revealed. In the film she was wrapping up her boobs. Now that might have been because there wasn’t an 1800s equivalent of a sports bra. But I suspect it’s just more of a Broadway/Hollywood performance thing where you just have to suspend your disbelief. Sort of like musicals themselves. Obviously if I know that it’s Samantha Barks in a newsboy cap and men’s overcoat after seeing her for the first time 3 songs ago, I’m sure her close friends would all know it’s her. I also suspect that Eponine’s actual wound was relatively minor and like most of the other characters, she died of a “broken heart”. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/44 "2013-09-12T20:20:17Z")
You’re right. It says that Eponine traded her clothes with some random guy and dressed herself as a “young workman”. I would guess she did so in order to travel the streets after dark which, in the tension and preparation of the barricades, would be easier for a man than a lone woman. As for her wound, the bullet went through her hand and then through her chest. > [@](#): > > Marius was seized with a shudder. > > “What madness! Poor child! But so much the better, if that is all, it is nothing, let me carry you to a bed. They will dress your wound; one does not die of a pierced hand.” > > She murmured:— > > \*\*“The bullet traversed my hand, but it came out through my back. It is useless to remove me from this spot. \*\*I will tell you how you can care for me better than any surgeon. Sit down near me on this stone.” I suppose having a bullet go through your chest might result in a broken heart 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/45 "2013-09-12T21:52:04Z")
> [@Hermione](#): > > For example, look at his spying on the barricade boys. It’s easy for us to say, “How could he be working against such idealistic young men who only wanted to help society?” But Javert worked for the government, he saw things as the government did, and in the eyes of the government, these were dangerous rebels. The sort of spying and deception that Javert engaged in at that point has always been consider a legitimate tactic in war. Try to find out what the enemy is up to; try to keep the enemy from knowing what you’re up to. Keep in mind that what Javert did to the rebels was not very much unlike what the rebels thought he was doing on their behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/46 "2013-09-12T22:04:12Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > To move the whole thing. The point of it was to establish that Valjean was ridiculously strong, and that Javert knew it. It seems to me that a big part of the purpose was to establish, before Javert, a visual of Valjean lifting the heavy pole, which would be echoed later when Javert sees “Monsieur Madeline” lifting the cart off of Fauchlevant. We, in the audience, are to understand that when Javert sees the later event, it reminds him of the earlier event. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/47 "2013-09-13T02:30:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > You’re right. It says that Eponine traded her clothes with some random guy and dressed herself as a “young workman”. I would guess she did so in order to travel the streets after dark which, in the tension and preparation of the barricades, would be easier for a man than a lone woman. > > As for her wound, the bullet went through her hand and then through her chest. > I suppose having a bullet go through your chest might result in a broken heart 😉 Who says “the bullet traversed my hand” instead of “AAHHHHH!! MOTHER FUCK MY HAND!!!”? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/48 "2013-09-13T02:48:14Z")
The French. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/49 "2013-09-13T13:50:03Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > The French. Nicely done. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/50 "2013-09-15T00:22:05Z")
One line that amuses me, in the scene just after Marius and Cosette have had their “love at first sight”moment, and Marius is now meeting with his fellow rebels, but more interested in singing about Cosette than about the revolution of which the others are singing; one of his colleagues, commenting on his personal life, sings, _“It’s almost like an opera.”_ It’s not _“…almost like an opera.”_ It **is** an opera; though I suppose we can’t expect a minor character in it to be conscious of this fact. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/51 "2013-09-15T01:43:54Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > One line that amuses me, in the scene just after Marius and Cosette have had their “love at first sight”moment, and Marius is now meeting with his fellow rebels, but more interested in singing about Cosette than about the revolution of which the others are singing; one of his colleagues, commenting on his personal life, sings, _“It’s almost like an opera.”_ > > It’s not _“…almost like an opera.”_ It **is** an opera; though I suppose we can’t expect a minor character in it to be conscious of this fact. I was amused by the line “Life without Cosette means nothing at all”. Really? Life without Cosette means exactly what it meant up until 24 hours ago when you first met her. ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/52 "2013-09-15T03:12:52Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I was amused by the line “Life without Cosette means nothing at all”. Really? Life without Cosette means exactly what it meant up until 24 hours ago when you first met her. _snicker_ I guess it’s just one of those musical-theatre things you have to suspend your disbelief for. It worked a little better in the novel–of course, there was still the element of mutual love at first sight. Marius and Cosette glimpsed each other while she was walking with Valjean in the park, and, naturally, were smitten with each other. He tried to keep up with her over several months without knowing her name (and there’s an incident with Thenardier and his gang which is GREATLY simplified for the show). Finally, they met, Marius declared his love…but between that point and the rebellion, the two “dated” secretly without Valjean finding out, over the course of several months. People were more invested in the idea of “love at first sight” in their fiction in the nineteenth century, I guess, and that’s reflected in the show, although the time frame is greatly telescoped. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/53 "2013-09-15T03:47:10Z")
> [@Hermione](#): > > _snicker_ I guess it’s just one of those musical-theatre things you have to suspend your disbelief for. Of course it is.😃 Look, no offence to Victor Hugo and his massive tome, but almost no one really cares about the story of Jean Valjean, Javert and friends. That’s why the 90s film didn’t do so well and no one remembers the two dozen other non-musical versions that were made over the past several decades. What people love is the enthralling, bombastic, over the top songs from the musical. That’s why you can search YouTube and find a dozen videos of some college drama major flashmobbing their wedding with a rendition of ‘One Day More’ sung by all their friends from drama class. Watching a telling of Le Miz without the music is like watching two New York street gangs try and rumble without five years of jazz/tap training. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/54 "2013-09-15T12:13:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I was amused by the line “Life without Cosette means nothing at all”. Really? Life without Cosette means exactly what it meant up until 24 hours ago when you first met her. Have ya spent much time around teenagers lately? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/55 "2013-09-15T19:31:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You don’t know me well if you think I can think of Gavroche without wanting to weep genuine tears. > > “Little people know when little people fight … we may look easy pickings but we’ve got some bite … so never kick a dog because he’s just a pup–fight!–We’ll fight like twenty armies and we won’t give up … so you better run for cover when the pup grows up!” > > Poor kid. Deserved much better. You and I are total opposites. I mean if we ever touched it would be like an matter/anti-matter reaction. When I first saw the show (on broadway) I wanted them to shoot him some more, just to sure he is dead. He deserved it. They all deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/56 "2013-09-15T20:55:39Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > One line that amuses me, in the scene just after Marius and Cosette have had their “love at first sight”moment, and Marius is now meeting with his fellow rebels, but more interested in singing about Cosette than about the revolution of which the others are singing; one of his colleagues, commenting on his personal life, sings, _“It’s almost like an opera.”_ > > It’s not _“…almost like an opera.”_ It **is** an opera; though I suppose we can’t expect a minor character in it to be conscious of this fact. No, it’s “it’s better than an opera”. Musical theater is better than an opera, duh. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/57 "2013-09-15T21:34:37Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > No, it’s “it’s better than an opera”. Musical theater is better than an opera, duh. 😉 Now we’re getting into semantics. I guess opera is a subset of musical theater. All opera is musical theater, but not all musical theater is opera. Les Misérables is opera. ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/58 "2013-09-16T00:09:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > By the way, in the scene at the beginning of the movie when Javert told Valjean to retrieve the flag, was Javert just expecting him to detach the flag from the mast and just bring it back or did he expect him to try to move the whole thing? I’m watching that scene right now on HBO. (The movie’s not perfect, but except for the cuts to some of the songs, I find a lot more to like in it than to dislike.) From the defiant look on Valjean’s face, you could make a case that yes, Javert only meant for Valjean to retrieve the flag itself, but Valjean made a point of lifting the flagpole to show Javert “you see? I could wipe the floor with you if it weren’t for these chains.” ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/59 "2013-09-16T03:03:40Z")
What happened to the students was tragic, but you can’t say they weren’t warned. \*"You at the barricades, listen to **THIS!** No one is coming to help you to fight! You’re on your **OWN!** You have no friends! Give up your guns or **DIE!"** “Damn their warnings, damn their lies! They will see the people rise!”\* ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442/60 "2013-09-16T20:59:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What people love is the enthralling, bombastic, over the top songs from the musical. That’s why you can search YouTube and find a dozen videos of some college drama major flashmobbing their wedding with a rendition of ‘One Day More’ sung by all their friends from drama class. > > Watching a telling of Le Miz without the music is like watching two New York street gangs try and rumble without five years of jazz/tap training. I think one of the reasons the musical movie was Epic Fail to me was that they tried to inject too much realism into it. It’s easy to suspend some disbelief in a stage musical: it helps that the characters are _less_ nuanced and _less_ visceral when sung. In _At the End of the Day_ we know all we need to know about the lives of the poor- they’re a struggle and a war, etc., and we can fill in the rest. We know the whores have miserable lives but _Lovely Ladies_ is upbeat and a nice pick me up after _I Dreamed a Dream_. We know Thenardier is disgusting and every kind of crook but he’s also entertaining as a character (Falstaff’s evil cousin). However, when the whores have herpes, the woman is passing a swaddled dead baby through the bars in the “At the end of the day…” number, they’re yanking out Fantine’s teeth, _Master of the House_ is just gross (did we really need to see the cat’s tail chopped off or Thenardier pissing in the wine? (and don’t get me started on Cohen’s cheesy French accent in a movie where everyone who is French and not Gavroche is going for some version of an upper crust English), it takes out the fun without adding to the believability. Likewise, we can suspend disbelief about Marius being thunderstruck by Cosette: we get that we’re kind of seeing a synopsis. In the film we’re reminded that he knows the “bourgeois two a penny” girl for 4 minutes before his life has no meaning if she’s in the toilet. The movie _West Side Story_ is heavily dated, of course, but it works because they didn’t try for realism; it’s obvious that every scene is filmed on a set. Imagine a re-make of _West Side Story_ that’s actually filmed in the slums of NYC, has graphic violence in the knife fight, features a child prostitute passing by during _Maria_ and shows some poor smack addict vomit and die in the background during the _Dear Officer Krupke_ number, and that’s kind of the film version of _Les Mis_ to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/les-miz-did-enjolras-and-his-crew-deserve-what-they-got/668442.md?page=4)