# Lesbian Civil Unions Breaking Up at Nearly Twice the Gay Rate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904 "2013-10-10T18:34:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/1 "2013-10-10T18:34:37Z")
[Lesbian couples twice as likely as gay men to end civil partnership as ‘divorces’ up by 20%](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lesbian-couples-twice-as-likely-as-gay-men-to-end-civil-partnership-as-divorces-up-by-20-8866454.html) > [@](#): > > Lesbian couples are nearly twice as likely as gay men to end a civil partnership, according to the latest government figures. > > The number of same-sex couples ending their civil unions leapt by 20 per cent last year, seven years after their introduction in 2005. Overall there were 794 dissolutions in 2012, almost 60 per cent of which were female couples, figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show. > > In the seven years since gay couples were able to have civil partnerships, 3.2 per cent of male unions ended in dissolution, compared to 6.1 per cent of female couples. The possible significance of this is not just about lesbians and gays, IMO. Because it’s well known that the vast majority of heterosexual divorces are initiated by women. This new stat would seem to suggest that this is - in part - because women are more likely to be dissatisfied with their relationships than men are, rather than being due to the different ways that men versus women act in relationships. IOW that the same level of deficiency in a relationship or a partner that might cause a woman to break up the relationship would not necessarily cause a man to do so. Possibly this difference in dissatisfaction levels is because women tend to be more emotionally vested in these relationships, such that annoyances that are more minor irritations for men loom larger for women. [I also think the the custody and child support system is also a factor.] Of course, there is not a long history of these civil unions and there could be other factors, and there could also be differences between gal/lesbian civil unions and straight marriages. But it’s suggestive. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/2 "2013-10-10T18:38:49Z")
Not necessarily. It may well have to do with the novelty of the thing, wherein people rush to do what they were not previously permitted to do, only to find it ill-advised. It happens. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/3 "2013-10-10T18:44:41Z")
Are you saying that it’s more of a novelty for lesbians than for gays? Or that they are more likely to be into novelties than gays? Or are you addressing in any other way the title and OP of this thread, which is: "Lesbian Civil Unions Breaking Up at Nearly Twice the Gay Rate "? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/4 "2013-10-10T18:49:13Z")
Misread. Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/5 "2013-10-10T18:53:15Z")
I don’t think women are any more dissatisfied that men. Just that men put up with more shit. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/6 "2013-10-10T18:55:28Z")
I am at work and need to limit my click-thoughs, so forgive me if this is answered on the link, but how do the numbers for real marriages compare to “civil unions”? Or haven’t we have enough states with marriage equality long enough to compile useful statistics? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/7 "2013-10-10T19:00:26Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > I don’t think women are any more dissatisfied that men. Just that men put up with more shit. Those are pretty much the same thing, for my purposes here. The question is whether men put up with more, or whether men produce more. One quibble I do have is that it’s possible that women are more attracted to the idea of marriage to begin with and are thus more motivated to enter into ill-advised civil unions than men are. Though this too could then be a factor in straight relationships as well. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > I am at work and need to limit my click-thoughs, so forgive me if this is answered on the link, but how do the numbers for real marriages compare to “civil unions”? Or haven’t we have enough states with marriage equality long enough to compile useful statistics? No idea what the answer to your question is, but I would note that the stats given are for the UK, and the article refers to studies of other European countries which showed the same. Nothing about the US. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/8 "2013-10-10T19:11:31Z")
Ah. In that case I will not even begin to speculate. (Disclaimer: the lesbians in my social circle are almost indistinguishable from the straight couples, as we are all middle-class, married, with children between 17 and 23. I would hesitate to extrapolate from my experience to any type of national trend or tendency.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/9 "2013-10-10T19:30:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Those are pretty much the same thing, for my purposes here. The question is whether men put up with more, or whether men produce more. > > One quibble I do have is that it’s possible that women are more attracted to the idea of marriage to begin with and are thus more motivated to enter into ill-advised civil unions than men are. Though this too could then be a factor in straight relationships as well. There’s the not-entirely-unfounded stereotype about lesbians being quick to get into long-term relationships. As the old joke goes, “What does a lesbian bring on the second date?” A U-Haul." It would be interesting to see stats on how long these couples had been together before they got married, and see how that compares with non-lesbian couples. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/10 "2013-10-10T19:44:01Z")
I recall that back in 2004 when marriage came to Massachusetts that the ratio of marriages was lopsided as well (more lesbian marriages). That would support the hypothesis that gay men are more circumspect about entering a marriage to begin with. > **[Lesbian Couples Boosting Gay Marriage Numbers](https://www.npr.org/2011/07/11/137763596/lesbian-couples-boosting-gay-marriage-numbers)** > > Demographer Gary Gates says lesbian couples are twice as likely to get married as gay men. Eventually, same-sex and straight couples' marriages rates will be about the same, he says. > [@](#): > > Lesbian couples, who are twice as likely to get married as gay men, are helping drive the trend. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/11 "2013-10-10T19:50:24Z")
Women are also more likely to initiate divorces in straight marriages. And lesbian marriages have twice as many women as that. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/12 "2013-10-10T19:57:19Z")
How does that compare to the divorce rate over the same time period? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/13 "2013-10-10T20:06:21Z")
I did from something from the office for [National Statistics](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/divorces-in-england-and-wales/2011/stb-divorces-2011.html) saying the divorce rate over 40%. Not sure about when those marriages started though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/14 "2013-10-10T20:20:28Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > And lesbian marriages have twice as many women as that. I can’t believe I never before pictured a couple where both partners are silently glaring at the other – neither of 'em bothering to spell anything out, because each of 'em is furiously thinking _Oh, You Know What You Did._ ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/15 "2013-10-10T21:08:45Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I did from something from the office for [National Statistics](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/divorces-in-england-and-wales/2011/stb-divorces-2011.html) saying the divorce rate over 40%. Not sure about when those marriages started though. I don’t think you can compare straight marriages with g/l civil unions for a number of reasons. Including the length of time these have been available, the percentage of the population which elects them, the difference in children frequency, and possible other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/16 "2013-10-10T22:15:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think you can compare straight marriages with g/l civil unions for a number of reasons. Including the length of time these have been available, the percentage of the population which elects them, the difference in children frequency, and possible other reasons. It’s not going to an exact correlation of course. It does seem to at least suggest that gay couples dissolve their civil relationship at about 10% the rate that straight couples do. Of course, it would need to be looked at when numbers are available over something like a 30 year or more time period. I also wonder how many of those relationships had existed for a long time beforehand. For example, the Goodrich’s (of Goodrich v Department of Public Health) were separated after 2 years of marriage and divorced after 5. However they had been together for 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/17 "2013-10-10T23:01:31Z")
I have a thought line I’d like you fair persons to tear apart on this: Isn’t this more of a general cultural shift? Aren’t those dang whipper-snappers far more likely to be casual about not only their relationships, but also the relationships around them? In 1920 as a horribly simplistic example, if you left your husband and didn’t keep it quiet, it was something of a scandal. “Jody left Hank!” “That’s terrible! How’s she gonna make it on her own?!” Nowadays, outside of general lamenting the loss, it’s more of a “Oh, Jody left Hank last week.” “That sucks.” The rush of marriage/civil unions was a larger segment of younger persons than older people from my very brief exposure on the internet news. I have to wonder how much of this is less “shocking and terrible” and just more of a “we’ve moved on with our lives.” ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/18 "2013-10-10T23:06:01Z")
Many years ago, I heard something on the radio about the divorce rate being higher for lesbian couples than it is for gay men in countries that had legal gay marriage, so it doesn’t surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/19 "2013-10-10T23:25:40Z")
Yeah, I think the greater cultural pressure on women to see marriage as something necessary for their personal fulfillment probably affects lesbians as well as straight women. I’d also like to see some more statistics about the ages and “relationship ages” (i.e., length of time as an unmarried but monogamous couple) at which these couples are marrying/unioning. The OP’s linked article gives the average age of lesbian newlyweds at around 37 and that of gay male ones around 40, which isn’t a big difference, but it doesn’t tell us anything about what kind of average was used or the standard deviations. Are we tending to see mostly long-established gay male couples in their 30’s through 50’s making it legal, as opposed to a broader spectrum among lesbians with middle-aged long-term partners balanced by starry-eyed twentysomething couples who don’t really know what they want in life? If so, it doesn’t surprise me at all that the lesbians divorce more than the gay men. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/20 "2013-10-10T23:32:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I can’t believe I never before pictured a couple where both partners are silently glaring at the other – neither of 'em bothering to spell anything out, because each of 'em is furiously thinking _Oh, You Know What You Did._ The toilet seat left up even _once_ will mean doom. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904.md?page=2)