# Lesbian Civil Unions Breaking Up at Nearly Twice the Gay Rate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904 "2013-10-10T18:34:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/21 "2013-10-11T01:13:32Z")
Just a theory but there’s the stereotype of men not wanting to discuss their feelings. It could be that it’s more likely that when a male-male marriage faces problems, the two men are less likely to seek a confrontation. It’s women who are more likely to bring the marital difficulties out into the open - where they might get fixed or they might lead to a divorce. Two men may end up breaking up and living separate lives while avoiding acknowledging the problems in their marriage - and consequently remaining technically married. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/22 "2013-10-11T02:36:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Just a theory but there’s the stereotype of men not wanting to discuss their feelings. It could be that it’s more likely that when a male-male marriage faces problems, the two men are less likely to seek a confrontation. It’s women who are more likely to bring the marital difficulties out into the open - where they might get fixed or they might lead to a divorce. Two men may end up breaking up and living separate lives while avoiding acknowledging the problems in their marriage - and consequently remaining technically married. I think it’s actually a little more complicated. In college, I was a RA for several years, and in general, women had far more friction and far more issues with their roommates than men did. The women would get torqued about some (to me) petty issue like whether they left their makeup out, or if all their roommate’s dirty laundry was in the hamper in the closet with the door closed. Or something stupid like leaving the cap off their toothpaste, or getting makeup on the floormat. They’d literally get pissed off at their roommates about leaving the door open to the closet where the dirty clothes could be seen. Then, once torqued, the vast majority of women would never actually confront the other girl directly, they’d usually do passive-aggressive shit and/or snipe at the other girl behind her back. Men on the other hand, tended to have a different outlook. Little stuff tended to be overlooked or ignored if it wasn’t worth a confrontation. But when it did come to a confrontation, the men tended to be direct and to the point, and almost always, they’d talk it out and compromise, or the offending party would realize the error of their ways and shape up. Very rarely would things escalate from there. By and large, the male threshold for offense was much higher, with a greater willingness for face-to-face confrontation, and it led to much more harmonious relationships. I’m straight, but I strongly believe that outside of the romantic/sex part, a pair of people living together are essentially roommates and that the dorm model is a good way to look at this. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/23 "2013-10-11T02:42:18Z")
> [@bump](#): > > In college, I was a RA for several years, and in general, women had far more friction and far more issues with their roommates than men did. The women would get torqued about some (to me) petty issue My sister and one or two of her roommates moved out on the other one because she was not only very opinionated on how the rooms should be set up, she also left very demanding post it notes basically telling the other girls what to do, cleaning and setup wise. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/24 "2013-10-11T03:35:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > In college, I was a RA for several years, and in general, women had far more friction and far more issues with their roommates than men did. Not disparaging your experience, but it’s different from mine as a faculty member living in an apartment in a college dorm for four years (not an RA per se but sort of RA supervisor). In my experience, the men tended to have fewer conflicts about domestic matters because they were more willing to “outsource” them: if a guy spilled something in the bathroom or kitchenette, for example, they’d all just ignore it until the college housekeeping staff eventually came by to clean it up. Female students in a similar situation would have more clashes about carelessness, damage, etc., but they also were more proactive about fixing the problem instead of just leaving it for others to encounter and ultimately deal with. What was interesting was that when the male students were in a situation where they **had** to take responsibility for the condition of their surroundings, e.g., if there was a party or other event that the organizers were tasked to clean up after, their behavior became very similar to that of the female students. They were more conscientious about cleaning and organization but also more prone to trivial conflicts about who wasn’t doing his share, whose fault it was that this problem happened, and so forth. So I’m inclined to think that gender differences between students living in a dorm environment with a lot of household support services may not be representative of the behaviors of self-supporting adults. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/25 "2013-10-11T04:00:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Lesbian couples twice as likely as gay men to end civil partnership as ‘divorces’ up by 20%](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lesbian-couples-twice-as-likely-as-gay-men-to-end-civil-partnership-as-divorces-up-by-20-8866454.html) :dubious: And you put ‘divorces’ in quotes **why?** ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/26 "2013-10-11T05:26:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: And you put ‘divorces’ in quotes **why?** :dubious: \*\*Because \*\*it’s a direct quote from the linked article, Captain Sensitivity, which in its turn may be because the process of ending a civil partnership is not a divorce in the legal sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/27 "2013-10-11T13:12:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Not disparaging your experience, but it’s different from mine as a faculty member living in an apartment in a college dorm for four years (not an RA per se but sort of RA supervisor). If we’re breaking out _women-in-a-college-dorm_ anecdotes to ponder the source of this higher divorce rate, I’ll mention menstrual synchronization. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/28 "2013-10-11T13:57:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So I’m inclined to think that gender differences between students living in a dorm environment with a lot of household support services may not be representative of the behaviors of self-supporting adults. At my school, the only housekeeping services provided were that the custodial staff came through and cleaned the toilets, showers and sinks once a week, and they vacuumed the hallways and took out the trash in the hallways. Everything else in students’ rooms was up to them. I just meant that in most cases I saw, the girls were getting torqued about things that most men would consider trivial. **Ludovic’s** example is spot-on in my experience. Living with anyone is an adjustment, and dorm stories aside, and looking at married couples I know, the wives bitch at the husbands about the most trivial and silly things. I can only imagine that two women doing that to each other would be far more likely to end in divorce than 2 men. What I’d be curious to see is how F-F and M-M marriages compare to M-F marriages in terms of divorce rate? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/29 "2013-10-11T14:04:28Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > :dubious: > > \*\*Because \*\*it’s a direct quote from the linked article, Captain Sensitivity, which in its turn may be because the process of ending a civil partnership is not a divorce in the legal sense of the word. I guessed before even looking at the link that it was a British news service, and I was correct. They’ll quote individual words or small phrases in their headlines. Other headlines from that site: Virgin domestic flights a ‘disaster’ as passengers stick with no-frills rivals Chinese ‘tough guy’ saws off his own leg to avoid hospital fees Turkish TV presenter ‘sacked’ for wearing low cut top on air They’re not sarcasm quotes like here in America. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/30 "2013-10-11T14:15:07Z")
So lesbian marriages are sexless and filled with petty conflicts and passive-aggressive behavior. Way to ruin the fantasy, universe. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/31 "2013-10-11T16:11:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, I think the greater cultural pressure on women to see marriage as something necessary for their personal fulfillment probably affects lesbians as well as straight women. > > I’d also like to see some more statistics about the ages and “relationship ages” (i.e., length of time as an unmarried but monogamous couple) at which these couples are marrying/unioning. The OP’s linked article gives the average age of lesbian newlyweds at around 37 and that of gay male ones around 40, which isn’t a big difference, but it doesn’t tell us anything about what kind of average was used or the standard deviations. > > Are we tending to see mostly long-established gay male couples in their 30’s through 50’s making it legal, as opposed to a broader spectrum among lesbians with middle-aged long-term partners balanced by starry-eyed twentysomething couples who don’t really know what they want in life? If so, it doesn’t surprise me at all that the lesbians divorce more than the gay men. I think this is it. Gay men don’t have a reputation for leaping into marriage, and many of the current batch of marriages are relationships that have already stood the test of time. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/32 "2013-10-11T17:37:06Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I guessed before even looking at the link that it was a British news service, and I was correct. They’ll quote individual words or small phrases in their headlines. > > Other headlines from that site: > > Virgin domestic flights a ‘disaster’ as passengers stick with no-frills rivals > Chinese ‘tough guy’ saws off his own leg to avoid hospital fees > Turkish TV presenter ‘sacked’ for wearing low cut top on air > > They’re not sarcasm quotes like here in America. True. Also, in the case of the Virgin quote at least, the word ‘disaster’ might be quoted because someone in the article itself is quoted as using the word. _The Independent_, btw, is a generally left-of-centre publication that you’d expect to be generally sympathetic to gay issues. (Aren’t we all, these days?) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/33 "2013-10-11T17:48:07Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So lesbian marriages are sexless and filled with petty conflicts and passive-aggressive behavior. Way to ruin the fantasy, universe. I’m guessing you haven’t seen a whole lot of real, live lesbians either. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/34 "2013-10-11T18:02:02Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m guessing you haven’t seen a whole lot of real, live lesbians either. Seriously. The term “sensible shoes” often applies in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/35 "2013-10-11T21:13:19Z")
(BTW, how many of you trying to answer this question are lesbian, or in the community? More than one?) Being a lesbian as well as in the trans community, and having numerous lesbian friends (more than I can count), I’ll have to say that in my neck of the woods any inequity in separation rates isn’t apparent to the point where it’s discussed. However, I’ll offer some ponderings from my experience. 1. When a gay couple comes together, where one or more was originally in a straight relationship, it appears to me to be uncommon that outsiders try to split up the relationship. Ex-girlfriends/wives rarely ever attempt such, in fact usually they vanish. Whereas the ex-boyfriends/husbands of the women seem to range from pestering to almost threatening. Men generally do not handle being left for a woman very well, and the lesbian couple is harassed pretty severely, and sometimes for _years_ after the one partner left the man. Some of these men will even try harassing or intimidating the friends of the couple, something which I’ve personally experienced. 2. “Predatory” single lesbians looking for one-night stands can easily be found at any club scene, and they hone in on you like a guided missile. Some of these girls seem almost sociopathic, and will put a lot of subtle pressure on one of the partners, as well as getting drunk and flirting openly and physically with them. Again, something I experience on a regular basis. Whereas gay couples (in my experience, mind you) don’t seem to have so much pressure from third parties. 3. Lesbian couples that I know tend to socioeconomically worse off than the gay couples. Often one of the women is unemployed or underemployed. 4. Lesbian couples often have at least one partner trying to juggle raising kids from a prior relationship, or distraught over not being able to keep their kids. This has led to stress which has broken up at least 2 relationships I know of. 5. Alcohol abuse among lesbians _that I know_ tends to be much higher than that of the gay couples that I know. Possibly because of items (1)-(4). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/36 "2013-10-11T23:08:49Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > (BTW, how many of you trying to answer this question are lesbian, or in the community? More than one?)… _yawn_ Too long, didn’t read. Why don’t you go rustle up some coffee and let the straight menfolk talk, honey. 😉 Actually, #1 is a good point and #3 and #4 are obvious if you give it a second’s thought, especially if they both bring kids. I didn’t know about #5 and #2 is a revelation. Damn, gay or straight, women are the shark chum of the bar scene. I truly regret some of my behavior back when I was single. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/37 "2013-10-12T00:24:21Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > 1. Lesbian couples that I know tend to socioeconomically worse off than the gay couples. Often one of the women is unemployed or underemployed. I was going to mention this possibility but forgot. Although I don’t know many lesbian couples, incomes for women are lower than that for men and same sex couples are no exception. And arguments and stress over money is one of the main causes of breakups. Although it would be interesting to see if the study did correct for income levels, since it’s fairly common to do so in sociological studies. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/38 "2013-10-12T02:35:46Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think it’s actually a little more complicated. > > In college, I was a RA for several years, and in general, women had far more friction and far more issues with their roommates than men did. This is something that I’ve noticed. There may be a lot of confirmation bias, and I do know women who’ve also gotten along very well with their roommates, but in general, in my experience, male roommates seem to have a far easier time getting along with each other than women roommates do. Of course, this often translates to being ok with living in a pig sty 🙂 And I’m not claiming that this has anything to do with divorce rates among gay people. It may, but it also may not. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/39 "2013-10-12T03:56:51Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > (BTW, how many of you trying to answer this question are lesbian, or in the community? More than one?) > > Being a lesbian as well as in the trans community, and having numerous lesbian friends (more than I can count), I’ll have to say that in my neck of the woods any inequity in separation rates isn’t apparent to the point where it’s discussed. > > However, I’ll offer some ponderings from my experience. > > 1. When a gay couple comes together, where one or more was originally in a straight relationship, it appears to me to be uncommon that outsiders try to split up the relationship. Ex-girlfriends/wives rarely ever attempt such, in fact usually they vanish. Whereas the ex-boyfriends/husbands of the women seem to range from pestering to almost threatening. Men generally do not handle being left for a woman very well, and the lesbian couple is harassed pretty severely, and sometimes for _years_ after the one partner left the man. Some of these men will even try harassing or intimidating the friends of the couple, something which I’ve personally experienced. > > 2. “Predatory” single lesbians looking for one-night stands can easily be found at any club scene, and they hone in on you like a guided missile. Some of these girls seem almost sociopathic, and will put a lot of subtle pressure on one of the partners, as well as getting drunk and flirting openly and physically with them. Again, something I experience on a regular basis. Whereas gay couples (in my experience, mind you) don’t seem to have so much pressure from third parties. > > 3. Lesbian couples that I know tend to socioeconomically worse off than the gay couples. Often one of the women is unemployed or underemployed. > > 4. Lesbian couples often have at least one partner trying to juggle raising kids from a prior relationship, or distraught over not being able to keep their kids. This has led to stress which has broken up at least 2 relationships I know of. > > 5. Alcohol abuse among lesbians _that I know_ tends to be much higher than that of the gay couples that I know. Possibly because of items (1)-(4). This in an excellent post. True in my limited experience – I don’t know about #2 and #5 (not a lesbian just have relatives & friends who are). ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/40 "2013-10-12T04:23:01Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think this is it. Gay men don’t have a reputation for leaping into marriage, and many of the current batch of marriages are relationships that have already stood the test of time. This. There’s no cliche about gay men bringing a U-Haul trailer to the second date. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904.md?page=3)