# Lesbian Civil Unions Breaking Up at Nearly Twice the Gay Rate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904 "2013-10-10T18:34:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/41 "2013-10-12T04:29:22Z")
Look, lesbians only exist for the sake of sexual titillation of straight men. This I know, because the porn-Bible tells me so. **Of course** their same-sex so-called unions are not going to last if the silly dykes try to take them **seriously,** and without even involving a male third as God intended! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/42 "2013-10-12T07:47:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > (BTW, how many of you trying to answer this question are lesbian, or in the community? More than one?) At least two, by my count. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/43 "2013-10-20T17:14:39Z")
I was in a band a while back, and my bassist was a lesbian. She said that her relationships are hard because, (and I paraphrase), “Women are just mean to each other, just because I am a lesbian doesn’t change that. You know how groups of women frequently don’t work well together? Imagine being in a relationship with that shit going on.” She went through three relationships while we were playing, and they all ended in cheating (by both parties.) I kind of figured that it would be the other way around, honestly, with dudes having a hard time staying together in marriage versus the ladies. That really surprised me. But the gay (dudes) couple I have known that went the marriage route a long time ago are still happily married. Maybe its because of the old homage “men are marrying the person they see now, while women marry what they hope the person will be.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/44 "2013-10-20T17:57:27Z")
The rates quoted in that article for both seemed very low: > [@](#): > > In the seven years since gay couples were able to have civil partnerships, 3.2 per cent of male unions ended in dissolution, compared to 6.1 per cent of female couples. In contrast in [heterosexual marriage](http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/marriage-divorce-statistics) 20% are divorced within 5 years. Now still not apples to apples given that 7 years of ability to have gay partnerships likely is not the same as “within 5 years” - likely most of those are still under the 5 year mark - but still seems low. Of course age and class differences and other confounders may explain lots too but so far those numbers suggest that gay partnerships are less likely to end in divorce than heterosexual ones and male gay partnerships are particularly unlikely to. Breaking out the confounders and selection bias issues would be enlightening but likely not yet possible. Una, is there any truth to the idea that a greater number of self-identified lesbian women have some degree of bisexual attraction than gay males do? ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/45 "2013-10-20T18:21:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The rates quoted in that article for both seemed very low:In contrast in [heterosexual marriage](http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/marriage-divorce-statistics) 20% are divorced within 5 years. However, the OP stats are about civil partnerships in the UK, whereas that 20% rate is for the US. According to [this spreadsheet from the ONS](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/divorces-in-england-and-wales/2011/chd-divorce-chart-1-data.xls), 8.1% of marriages in England and Wales end in divorce within 5 years and 13.8% in 7 years. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/46 "2013-10-20T18:40:45Z")
Good point. So maybe in the same ball park with the notable bit being that gay male partnerships in the first years of availability are relatively stable compared to both lesbian and heterosexual ones. Which seems likely to be explainable by selection bias and confounders. IOW a remarkably unremarkable stat. ---
**Author:** ![knel3030](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecae2f/32.png) [@knel3030](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knel3030)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/47 "2013-10-21T06:40:09Z")
Well…maybe women should be isolated during that time of month. Less bridges burnt if a napalm flamethrower outburst is done in the antarctic. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/48 "2013-10-21T08:50:07Z")
Interesting but unsurprising stats. Interesting because the divorce rate does seem to be somewhat lower than for straight couples, though there are a couple of probable reasons for that. One is that a lot of the early civil partnerships were of people already in long-term relationships (from anecdotal evidence - no stats) which had lasted despite marriage rights. Another is that there is less societal pressure (note I said less, not no) on gay couples to get married, esp. if there are no kids involved, so they’d be more likely to be marriages made purely by choice. Unsurprising for several reasons already mentioned in this thread. There is some truth to the Uhaul stereotype (and I’m a lesbian in the UK). Too-quick marriages are obviously more likely to end in divorce. Children also bring pressures into a marriage that can help break it up. It’s worth noting that, for a lesbian couple who want to have kids and have both parents named on the birth certificate, they have to get married first. (Same for men, but it happens less often). It’s like you’re forced to get married. But then you might end up with years of trying to have a baby via insemination, which is difficult, expensive and stressful in itself. Straight couples often have kids and then get married but that is not an option for same-sex couples who want equal rights for both parents. And women in lesbian relationships are more likely to have sole or main custody of kids from previous relationships (with women or men) than men in gay relationships. Step-kids, and still-involved exes, bring their own pressures into a relationship. Lower incomes for women could well play a part too - I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s a good point. Quite apart from the arguments and difficulties that arise when you have money problems, if you end up unemployed or on a very low income you can be better off single than married. That applies to everybody, but statistically women are more likely to have low incomes and obviously that applies doubly to relationships with two women. It’s not actually a statistically-significant difference, though, with the number of civil partnerships and the number of years involved. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if the difference continued to be true over time. I think all the above would explain more than just women being more likely to grumble about minor problems. That might actually be true - it does correlate with my own experience - but I don’t know if it would actually lead to more divorces. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/49 "2013-10-21T23:39:39Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > 1. Lesbian couples that I know tend to socioeconomically worse off than the gay couples. Often one of the women is unemployed or underemployed. I bet this explains a lot of it. Economic issues cause lots of relationship-fracturing stress, and although things are better than they once were, women still generally make less money and have fewer economic oppurtunities than men. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/50 "2013-10-23T16:51:51Z")
Touching on that, is there a meaningful difference between lesbian and straight women’s earning power, or do we have no relevant data? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/51 "2013-10-23T17:56:21Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Quite apart from the arguments and difficulties that arise when you have money problems, if you end up unemployed or on a very low income you can be better off single than married. That applies to everybody, but statistically women are more likely to have low incomes and obviously that applies doubly to relationships with two women. I don’t see how that works. ISTM that it is usually better to be unemployed but partnered with someone employed than to be single and unemployed. Economies of scale mean that two can live on one income more easily than one can live on no income, IYSWIM. > [@Malacandra](#): > > Touching on that, is there a meaningful difference between lesbian and straight women’s earning power, or do we have no relevant data? [It appears that lesbians make more money than straight women.](http://www.experian.com/blogs/marketing-forward/2012/07/20/sim-a-look-at-household-income-and-discretionary-spend-of-lesbian-gay-and-heterosexual-americans/) They do so for a number of reasons - [they work more hours](http://freakonomics.com/2010/12/17/the-truth-about-gay-and-lesbian-income/)(which is part of why men make more money on average than women). I would guess that they are less likely to have children to care for, less likely to take time off from work to be pregnant, etc. (Note that I said less likely - not never.) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/52 "2013-10-23T18:07:23Z")
And, in case there was any doubt, [cite](http://econweb.rutgers.edu/killings/Econ_364/4_Black-Sanders-Taylor-lecturenotes.pdf) (pdf) that gays and lesbians have fewer children, at least in the US. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/53 "2013-10-23T18:16:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Lesbian couples twice as likely as gay men to end civil partnership as ‘divorces’ up by 20%](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lesbian-couples-twice-as-likely-as-gay-men-to-end-civil-partnership-as-divorces-up-by-20-8866454.html)The possible significance of this is not just about lesbians and gays, IMO. Because it’s well known that the vast majority of heterosexual divorces are initiated by women. This new stat would seem to suggest that this is - in part - because women are more likely to be dissatisfied with their relationships than men are, rather than being due to the different ways that men versus women act in relationships. IOW that the same level of deficiency in a relationship or a partner that might cause a woman to break up the relationship would not necessarily cause a man to do so. > > Possibly this difference in dissatisfaction levels is because women tend to be more emotionally vested in these relationships, such that annoyances that are more minor irritations for men loom larger for women. > > [I also think the the custody and child support system is also a factor.] > > Of course, there is not a long history of these civil unions and there could be other factors, and there could also be differences between gal/lesbian civil unions and straight marriages. But it’s suggestive. Clearly this points to the fact that women must be the single greatest reason in ALL divorces. (as attested to by a divorced man) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/54 "2013-10-24T07:32:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t see how that works. ISTM that it is usually better to be unemployed but partnered with someone employed than to be single and unemployed. Economies of scale mean that two can live on one income more easily than one can live on no income, IYSWIM. > > [It appears that lesbians make more money than straight women.](http://www.experian.com/blogs/marketing-forward/2012/07/20/sim-a-look-at-household-income-and-discretionary-spend-of-lesbian-gay-and-heterosexual-americans/) They do so for a number of reasons - [they work more hours](http://freakonomics.com/2010/12/17/the-truth-about-gay-and-lesbian-income/)(which is part of why men make more money on average than women). I would guess that they are less likely to have children to care for, less likely to take time off from work to be pregnant, etc. (Note that I said less likely - not never.) > > Regards, > Shodan Even with pooled resources, tax credits and state benefits often mean that two single people who houseshare and thus also share household bills are better off than two people living as a couple - sometimes far better off. It also tends to cause friction if one partner has to live off another, especially when there are no kids involved. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904/55 "2013-10-27T20:28:20Z")
Children is my first thought. [http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob2/civil-partnership-statistics--united-kingdom/2012/index.html](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob2/civil-partnership-statistics--united-kingdom/2012/index.html) Looked up the study, there is no controlling for difference in rates, other than an observation of age difference with male separation. There are many other differences noted in general though, eg that 80% of partnerships were between 2 single men, vs 63% between women - more women had previously been married etc. Otara [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lesbian-civil-unions-breaking-up-at-nearly-twice-the-gay-rate/670904.md?page=2)