# Leslie Van Houten recommended for parole **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 15, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272 "2016-04-15T14:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/181 "2016-07-24T21:09:36Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The environmental conditions (the _reasons_, the data input) that existed at the time were conditions that led Van Houten’s brain, in the configuration that it was at the time, to make the decision that she did. Unless random indeterminisitc (QM) factors were significant, no other decision is ever possible from that brain in that precise configuration given those precise data inputs What nonsense. And completly unsupported by neuroscience. But the next time I eat my SO last piece of chicken in the fridge I think I’ll pull your post up as justification. “Honey…I was hungry and the aroma of that chicken led my brain to force my hands to grab it and my mouth to chew it up. In that precise moment there was nothing else I could do!! You understand, right?” Ill have time to reflect on the incorrectness os these ideas as I pull her foot out of my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/182 "2016-07-24T21:15:57Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > What nonsense. And completly unsupported by neuroscience. But the next time I eat my SO last piece of chicken in the fridge I think I’ll pull your post up as justification. “Honey…I was hungry and the aroma of that chicken led my brain to force my hands to grab it and my mouth to chew it up. In that precise moment there was nothing else I could do!! You understand, right?” Ill have time to reflect on the incorrectness os these ideas as I pull her foot out of my ass. If this is really the best you can do, I take it that you have no actual counterargument. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/183 "2016-07-24T21:23:42Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So what does “free will” mean? Nothing, it’s logically an incoherent concept. How would you address my argument? (I realize I was somewhat flippant but I was making a valid point.) Your argument is that we should recognize that it’s wrong to punish Van Houten and then act on that recognition by choosing not to do the wrong thing. But implicit in that argument is the premise that we have free will and can make choices. Leslie Van Houten is human just like the rest of us. So if we have free will and the ability to make choices then so does she. And that means she did choose to commit crimes and therefore she can be held responsible for that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/184 "2016-07-24T22:30:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How would you address my argument? (I realize I was somewhat flippant but I was making a valid point.) > > Your argument is that we should recognize that it’s wrong to punish Van Houten and then act on that recognition by choosing not to do the wrong thing. But implicit in that argument is the premise that we have free will and can make choices. I’m not really sure what you mean here. I don’t think it’s wrong to punish Van Houten. It’s only wrong to punish her for revenge. Punishment for deterrence is perfectly ethical. The fact that we do not have free will does not mean (imo) that we should no longer describe what our brains do as “making decisions”. Nor that ethical metrics for good/bad decisions are no longer valid - Golden Rule, or whatever. It’s just that “making decisions” is really only computation: data input, complex decision-making algorithm, action output. To the extent that you or I have any influence on the decision about her punishment, part of our computational process is having this discussion and thinking about it the ideas that are exchanged. I do grant that a logical realization of the absence of free will in this process can quite easily create an utterly confusing existential crisis, and I don’t claim to have a clear resolution to that. Some philosophers (I’m not kidding) advocate hiding the fact from the public in case society implodes! But weird and difficult implications don’t have any bearing on the truth of the matter. If there’s a logical counter to what I’ve laid out above I have yet to hear it. To be clear: I’m not making an empirical claim that there’s no evidence for free will. It’s a logical claim that there is no coherent concept of free will. If you think there is free, your first burden is to define it coherently. But to go with “but…Nazis” or “so I can eat all the ice cream” is little different from Victorians hearing about evolution and outrageously insisting that they are not apes. In any event, I think in practice we should just carry on making the best decisions we can using the mental toolkit (with accompanying illusions) that nature gave us. At least that’s what I seem to do. As I said, the only really strong implication that I take from it is that it is ethically wrong to punish/hurt people solely for revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/185 "2016-07-24T22:39:52Z")
missed edit window: what I wrote reads like I’m saying you went with “so I can eat all the ice cream” etc, I did not mean that, I was just describing a common type of reaction in considering the implications. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/186 "2016-07-24T23:47:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Van Houten was more or less ordered to stab Rosemary LaBianca by the other Manson creepazoids, apparently to make her equally culpable and/or to prove she was one of the gang. I don’t have a cite but I believe Mrs. LaBianca was already dead by the time Van Houten stabbed her. > > That woman has been screwed around by the system in way that’s nothing less than shameful. The parole boards through the years kept telling her she needed to this or that in order to prove herself and make herself parole-able, and time after time they’d find some new reason once she’d done what they told her would make her acceptable for parole. Finally it got to the point where they’d come full circle and were telling her to do stuff they’d already told her to do years before and which she’d already completed. > > But she never lost her cool, never blew up or showed any anger, and always went to work with a good attitude to try to accomplish whatever it was they threw at her this time. To me the way she’s handled the constant bullshit from parole boards and the exemplary way she’s lived in prison demonstrate far beyond a reasonable doubt that she not only wouldn’t be a danger to society but probably a hard working contributor to it. > > I’m as law and order as the next guy, but given that I don’t believe she actually killed Rosemary LaBianca and that she’s been jerked around time and time again by a correction system (and now a governor) that really has no intention of releasing her, I think that to continue to torture her with hope of future parole provided she did X, Y or Z, is shameful. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself were I a party to the abuses that poor woman has been subjected to. Rosemary LaBianca was screwed around by LVH much more then LVH has been screwed around by the system. You think Ms LaBianca was already dead, maybe maybe not but I imagine the intent of Ms Van Houten was murder. Had the system not failed the Tate/LaBianca victims, Ms Van Houten and the others would have been executed about 45 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/187 "2016-07-25T12:27:08Z")
What do you think would have happened if Van Houten had refused to do what she was told? All the other people in that room had committed mass murder the night before. They would have turned on Van Houten in an instant. That doesn’t excuse her. She deserved prison. She’s served over 40 years. That’s excessive punishment. Imho ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/188 "2016-07-25T14:12:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not really sure what you mean here. I don’t think it’s wrong to punish Van Houten. It’s only wrong to punish her for revenge. Punishment for deterrence is perfectly ethical. Punishment for deterrence can’t be any more ethical than punishment for revenge. Neither makes any difference, because no one is deterred - they weren’t going to murder anyone anyway. Neither is punishing for revenge - they were going to be punished anyway. A difference that makes no difference is no difference. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/189 "2016-07-25T18:00:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Punishment for deterrence can’t be any more ethical than punishment for revenge. Neither makes any difference, because no one is deterred - they weren’t going to murder anyone anyway. Neither is punishing for revenge - they were going to be punished anyway. > > A difference that makes no difference is no difference. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m not sure what you mean here. Can you explain? Are you making the argument “no free will” \> determinism \> fatalism, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/190 "2016-07-25T18:15:01Z")
It’s absolutely amazing that Manson is still alive considering he’s spent the majority of his life on prison food, has been set on fire, has done all kinds of drugs, smoked for most of his life, is the most notorious prisoner in a warehouse full of murderers and violent offenders, and if he were to be tossed over a 3 story balcony few would demand an inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/191 "2016-07-26T16:04:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I do grant that a logical realization of the absence of free will in this process can quite easily create an utterly confusing existential crisis, and I don’t claim to have a clear resolution to that. Some philosophers (I’m not kidding) advocate hiding the fact from the public in case society implodes! Charming, but they needn’t worry. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/192 "2016-07-26T16:13:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That’s excessive punishment. Imho No it isn’t. Imho. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272.md?page=9)