# Leslie Van Houten recommended for parole **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 15, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272 "2016-04-15T14:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/61 "2016-04-16T21:56:48Z")
Well, if she tries to friend me on Facebook, I’ma gonna delete her ass. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/62 "2016-04-16T22:20:34Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I’m having trouble seeing where you’re going with this line of argument. We don’t lock people up proactively because we can’t predict people’s behaviors. And we should reevaluate whether someone should be locked up if enough time has passed that the person may have changed. Or do you believe that people can’t change? You said “If it’s believed that she’s no longer a danger to others, I see no reason to keep her locked up.” My point is, prior to brutally murdering people, I’m sure people wouldn’t have considered her a danger to others either. How can anyone be sure? Yes, you could say they same for me or any random person, but I don’t have a history of violence. The bar should be higher for her. LOTS higher. She could get out of prison, and her way home murder an entire family. Chances are very good I won’t murder anyone driving home today. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/63 "2016-04-16T22:50:37Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > How can anyone be sure? Yes, you could say they same for me or any random person, but I don’t have a history of violence. The bar should be higher for her. LOTS higher. I’m glad you acknowledge that the same logic could apply to any random person. And obviously I agree that the bar should be far higher for someone with a history of violence. I just don’t think it should be _unattainably_ high. 47 years seems like enough time to prove oneself if she was indeed a model prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/64 "2016-04-16T23:30:56Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Of course it’s sufficient cause. I have no problem, in general, with murderers being locked up for life. The question is if there’s any continued justification for it in this particular case. The evidence that further imprisonment serves any purpose seems weak. If you have no problem with it in general, I don’t know why you’d have a problem with it in any particular case. The purpose is keeping her away from decent people. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > 47 years seems like enough time to prove oneself if she was indeed a model prisoner. Why should we care what kind of prisoner she has been? She is a psychopathic murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/65 "2016-04-16T23:43:37Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Punishment as something disconnected from reality? No–that would be barbaric. > > When we punish a child for misbehaving, is it because we think that the child deserves to be harmed in some way to balance what they did wrong? Of course not. Children are punished because we think that it will have a conditioning effect; that they will (consciously or subconsciously) choose to behave well because the alternative is unpleasant. But children aren’t miniature adults. Van Houten wasn’t a child – she was an adult who knew what she was doing, and knew it was wrong. > [@](#): > > I think dangerous people should be locked away. And I think there is at least some value in the deterrence effect on others. That is indeed part of it. > [@](#): > > Perhaps there are additional pragmatic reasons that I’m not thinking of. But punishment as being this thing that you just _earn_ for being bad? That’s hell on Earth, literally. Maybe some people deserve that. That’s why we have life in prison as a sentence. Her crimes weren’t “[just being bad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Van_Houten#Murder_of_Leno_and_Rosemary_LaBianca)”. > [@](#): > > Manson opposed his three female co-defendants running a defense that he had asked them to commit killings, Van Houten did not appear to take the court seriously (she later claimed to have been supplied with LSD during the trial) and giggled during testimony about the victims. Part of rehabilitation sometimes means you accept that you must take responsibility for what you did. And sometimes that means accepting the consequences of those actions. And sometimes those consequences mean you give up the right to walk free in our society. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/66 "2016-04-16T23:47:35Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I’m not suggesting that. But the decisions made by a 19 year old are going to be significantly poorer than at 25. Our punishments should reflect our uncertainty than a person can behave better over time. That’s the whole idea behind parole, isn’t it, that the offender has rehabilitated? > [@](#): > > Better that than the principle of justice by karmic retribution, or justice by the whims of the victim’s relatives. Right. The legislature provided for parole and, as the courts have stated, to automatically deny parole is an abuse of the court’s sentence. The victim’s relatives, presumably, will not be applying the rationality that a court of law would. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > While I don’t think she should’ve been released, Van Houten didn’t participate in the Tate murders. There’s that. There’s also the issue that Polanski is a fugitive criminal himself so his desires in any case relating to him shouldn’t matter a tinker’s damn anyway. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > You don’t think there should be such a thing as punishment? NOT vengeance, but just, “hey, you do this horrible thing, so you earned life in prison?” There are plenty of people who do things thare AREN’T violent, but still end up serving some sort of sentence. > > It’s called the penal system, not the rehab system. I thought we’d long ago moved onto calling it the corrections system. Doesn’t that imply that the purpose of it is to correct the offender’s behavior and outlook? > [@Peremensoe](#): > > If you have no problem with it in general, I don’t know why you’d have a problem with it in any particular case. > > The purpose is keeping her away from decent people. > > Why should we care what kind of prisoner she has been? She is a psychopathic murderer. She was. AFAWCT she hasn’t killed anyone while in prison. To the contrary, she seems to have demonstrated that she’s managed to get rehabilitated. If she really does meet the requirements for parole, she should be released and, of course, monitored as parolees are supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/67 "2016-04-17T00:03:26Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > If you have no problem with it in general, I don’t know why you’d have a problem with it in any particular case. Because prisons, and prisoners, cost money. There is also what I’d consider a societal cost to having a large, powerful prison industry. Therefore, all else being equal, I’d rather have fewer prisoners around. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Why should we care what kind of prisoner she has been? She is a psychopathic murderer. I don’t think anyone can keep up a ruse for 47 years straight. Being a model prisoner is at least partial evidence that her previous behavior was not a permanent part of her personality. There’s also something to be said about parole being a driving force for reform. Not just for her sake, but her fellow prisoners and the wardens as well. We want prisoners to be on their best behavior. Offering a legitimate chance at parole encourages that. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/68 "2016-04-17T00:18:03Z")
Really a lot of the issue here is that she’s being treated very differently from other murderers, even those who committed “terrible” crimes that just don’t happen to be famous and who have not had movies made about them. If you truly believe that everyone who murders in this country gets life in prison, or even 40 years, then you are sadly mistaken. If you believe everyone who murders should get life in prison, fine, but why are you going to start with this one person? Get the laws changed. As someone said earlier, if society as a whole wants this then it should be easy to get the laws changed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/69 "2016-04-17T00:33:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m not saying Van Houten should be getting special treatment. As far as I’m concerned, life imprisonment should be the normal sentence for murder. I feel it’s proportionate. If you murder somebody you take away the rest of their life. So you should spend the rest of your life in prison. You should get as many days of walking around a free person as your victim will get. So if an 18 year old murdered a terminally ill 95 year old, you think the killer should be locked up until he dies, even if he lives to be 100 years old? Or should they only be locked up for a few years, because that’s all the person who was murdered likely had left? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/70 "2016-04-17T00:36:42Z")
I actually found a [later Susan Atkins interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURo0CSb1_A) and her [death bed Psalm recital](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85sf0EFkbEA) quite moving. Despite the horrific events she was involved with (at age 19) and her attitude at the subsequent trial, I felt a measure of compassion for the woman shown in the videos forty years later. I believe in the power of remorse, repentance and redemption, rather than the administration of eternal punishment. I’m not, in principle, against the idea of compassionate release for prisoners with months to live, or parole, for those who have spent decades (and a large majority of their life) behind bars serving their sentence, shown genuine remorse and repentance, good behavior, demonstrable character reformation and who are judged to no longer be a danger to society. So I’m open-minded on the issue. Since it should be done on a case by case basis, with the fullness of the facts, I’m not going to make a judgement call on this particular case either way. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/71 "2016-04-17T00:42:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It’s called the penal system, not the rehab system. It is? I thought it was called the _justice_ system. You know, as in “Department of Justice”? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/72 "2016-04-17T00:44:31Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Because prisons, and prisoners, cost money. There is also what I’d consider a societal cost to having a large, powerful prison industry. Therefore, all else being equal, I’d rather have fewer prisoners around. I certainly agree. But there are some large classes of prisoners I’d set loose before any murderer. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I don’t think anyone can keep up a ruse for 47 years straight. Being a model prisoner is at least partial evidence that her previous behavior was not a permanent part of her personality. I don’t care about her personality, permanent or otherwise. I care about the reality of what she did and is. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > There’s also something to be said about parole being a driving force for reform. Not just for her sake, but her fellow prisoners and the wardens as well. We want prisoners to be on their best behavior. Offering a legitimate chance at parole encourages that. I’m sure there are other incentives available to encourage good behavior by prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/73 "2016-04-17T00:47:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But children aren’t miniature adults. Van Houten wasn’t a child – she was an adult who knew what she was doing, and knew it was wrong. Sometimes children do know that what they’re doing is wrong. They still aren’t punished because they “deserve it”. Or rather, only a monster would do that. Our executive functions in particular are not fully developed until the mid-20’s. I’m sure that 19-year-old Leslie knew that what she was doing was wrong. Her ability to actually control her own behavior, particularly under the influence of drugs and in a cult atmosphere, is much less certain. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Maybe some people deserve that. I’m not sure that “deserve” has any real meaning at all, and certainly not one concrete enough to be used as part of a justice system. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Part of rehabilitation sometimes means you accept that you must take responsibility for what you did. And sometimes that means accepting the consequences of those actions. And sometimes those consequences mean you give up the right to walk free in our society. You seem to have a strange take on the meaning of rehabilitation. Why should anyone care at all if she “takes responsibility” only to die in prison? Rehabilitation should be about the possibility of rejoining society. Therefore, it can’t possibly include any component that involves never rejoining society. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/74 "2016-04-17T00:47:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It is? I thought it was called the _justice_ system. You know, as in “Department of Justice”? Have you ever been divorced? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/75 "2016-04-17T03:14:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Have you ever been divorced? You have just won the _non sequitur_ of the thread award! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/76 "2016-04-17T03:43:02Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Or do you believe that people can’t change? Leno and Rosemary LaBianca can’t change. They never had a chance to change after 1969. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/77 "2016-04-17T06:05:32Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > She should get out of prison when the La Bianca’s walk the earth again. > [@Scumpup](#): > > She gets out of prison when her victims get out of the graveyard. > [@Baker](#): > > I’d make a deal with Van Houten. When the people she helped to kill can walk around outside the prison, so can she. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > And the people she murdered are still DEAD. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Leno and Rosemary LaBianca can’t change. They never had a chance to change after 1969. You and others all seem to be making the same argument here, but I really fail to understand it. Nothing that anybody does can bring the victims back, or even begin to repay their families. However, you seem to believe that Leslie’s continued imprisonment does serve some purpose here–what is it? All I can guess is that you think every harm done must be balanced by another harm, based on the laws of–what, karma? What happens if that balance is not kept? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/78 "2016-04-17T10:32:49Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > You and others all seem to be making the same argument here, but I really fail to understand it. Nothing that anybody does can bring the victims back, or even begin to repay their families. However, you seem to believe that Leslie’s continued imprisonment does serve some purpose here–what is it? > > All I can guess is that you think every harm done must be balanced by another harm, based on the laws of–what, karma? What happens if that balance is not kept? I’m on the opposite end. I can’t understand your point of view. If the purpose of punishing a crime is to somehow fix things, then there’s no purpose at all. We might as well not even bother arresting murderers. Once the murder has occurred nothing will bring the victims back to life, so what’s the point? We’re just punishing the murderers for no reason. I don’t see things that way. Yes, we’re punishing somebody and that’s not going to undo the crime they committed. But the alternative is not punishing somebody and ignoring the crime they committed. And that, to me, seems wrong. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/79 "2016-04-17T10:54:12Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The purpose is keeping her away from decent people. I’d like her kept away from me as well. Why should decent people be treated better than folks like me? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/80 "2016-04-17T12:31:52Z")
Sometimes, “I’m sorry” isn’t enough no matter how sincerely it is said. I’d like her to remember that as she is knotting her bedsheets around her neck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272.md?page=5)