# Leslie Van Houten recommended for parole **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 15, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272 "2016-04-15T14:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/121 "2016-04-18T23:47:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I’d like a real world example each, please, of a good person who should be imprisoned and a bad person who should be free. No hypotheticals or thought experiments. Good people that should be imprisoned: I’ll go with Edward Snowden. I believe that the leaks were, on balance, a good thing, and furthermore that Snowden was acting within a respectable set of ethical principles. And yet what he did was undoubtedly illegal and thus should have the same punishment as anyone else that committed the same crime. Bad people that should be free: There are so many, but the first that comes to mind is Mel Gibson. A racist, abusive ass, but as best I can tell has done nothing that should land him in prison. As a neighbor or friend, or someone who I can empathize with and shares many of my own ethical principles, I choose Snowden over Gibson. But Snowden belongs in prison and Gibson doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/122 "2016-04-19T00:21:06Z")
What you just said is that people who break laws belong in prison and those who do not break laws should not be imprisoned. That is, AFAICT, how things work right now. If that isn’t what you meant, I’ll need further clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/123 "2016-04-19T00:30:26Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > What you just said is that people who break laws belong in prison and those who do not break laws should not be imprisoned. That is, AFAICT, how things work right now. If that isn’t what you meant, I’ll need further clarification. Yes, exactly. And what **Little Nemo** said was this: > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Justice is when good things happen to good people - and bad things happen to bad people. I say that’s not justice at all. Justice is applying the law equally regardless of whether we think a person is “good” or “bad”. Legal is not synonymous with good and illegal not synonymous with bad. As well it should be. And yes, I think things should basically work as they are now. It’s the “opposition” that thinks things should be different; that parole shouldn’t be offered to murderers because it violates some (still unexplained) karmic balance. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/124 "2016-04-19T00:47:09Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > It’s the “opposition” that thinks things should be different; that parole shouldn’t be offered to murderers because it violates some (still unexplained) karmic balance. That’s not it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/125 "2016-04-19T00:59:54Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > That’s not it at all. No one has yet offered an explanation that isn’t either metaphysical nonsense, or based on some gut feeling as to what people “deserve”. And **Little Nemo** ’s comment in particular is indistinguishable from karma. You’re still welcome to provide an explanation that isn’t one of these things. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/126 "2016-04-19T04:35:19Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > No one has yet offered an explanation that isn’t either metaphysical nonsense, or based on some gut feeling as to what people “deserve”. And **Little Nemo** ’s comment in particular is indistinguishable from karma. > > You’re still welcome to provide an explanation that isn’t one of these things. And you’re welcome to do the same. Because you haven’t yet. All you’ve done is tell us what you think is right. Which is what all of us are doing. There’s no reason why your opinion is founded in facts and logic and the rest of our opinions are wrong. Your gut feeling on what people deserve is no better than anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/127 "2016-04-19T06:37:01Z")
> [@Dr. Strangelove](#): > > Good people that should be imprisoned: I’ll go with Edward Snowden. I believe that the leaks were, on balance, a good thing, and furthermore that Snowden was acting within a respectable set of ethical principles. And yet what he did was undoubtedly illegal and thus should have the same punishment as anyone else that committed the same crime. Why should Snowden be imprisoned? It won’t change the past, and we can be very confident he won’t reoffend. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/128 "2016-04-19T08:40:45Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Why should Snowden be imprisoned? It won’t change the past, and we can be very confident he won’t reoffend. Because it’s the law. Don’t get me wrong; Javert is not my hero. The laws themselves can be unjust, and punishments disproportionate. But the law is pretty clear here and Snowden broke it. On the unlikely chance that there’s ever a trial, I’d hope that Snowden’s motivations are a factor in (reduced) sentencing. But as I’ve said, a key part of justice is equal application of the law, regardless of whether we like the guy or not. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Your gut feeling on what people deserve is no better than anyone else’s. _Of course it isn’t._ That’s the whole reason I don’t depend on it, and hope that others will do the same. My approach, as it were, has the advantage that it actually corresponds to reality. Aside from all these hypotheticals, we actually live in a world where murderers are regularly released on parole. The world hasn’t ended and there is no imbalance in The Force. There will also be no great disaster when Van Houten is released. Furthermore, my position is falsifiable. If there were a statistically significant rash of parolee crime, I’d reevaluate my position on the effectiveness of parole boards and their ability to gauge the risk of a given prisoner. It is amenable to evidence. On the other hand, there is apparently nothing that could convince you that your gut feeling is wrong. A position which is wholly independent of evidence or any kind of reality is one that should be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/129 "2016-04-19T13:05:17Z")
You still don’t get it. You admit you have a gut feeling about crime. But then you talk about how you can prove it’s true by testing its falsibility. You can’t prove an opinion. And what you have is an opinion. Your claim that your opinion can be proven is begging the question; it’s based on the premise that the reason for imprisonment is to prevent recidivism. And that’s not a given. The purpose of imprisonment is the topic we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/130 "2016-04-19T14:28:15Z")
In fact, reducing recidivism, as a primary objective, kind of conflicts with the principle mentioned upthread that it is wrong to imprison people for things they _might_ do, in the future. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > We don’t lock people up proactively because we can’t predict people’s behaviors. Right. Neither imprisonment nor release should be about what somebody expects somebody might or might not do. That could never be fair. It should be about what they have done. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/131 "2016-04-19T14:47:37Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Right. Neither imprisonment nor release should be about what somebody expects somebody might or might not do. That could never be fair. It should be about what they have done. Parole is based on what they’ve done in prison, at least partly, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/132 "2016-04-19T15:38:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Parole is based on what they’ve done in prison, at least partly, isn’t it? Yes. Although many people would be surprised to learn it usually doesn’t work the other way around. Prisoners generally don’t get judged by what their crimes were. Obviously, there are going to be cases (like Van Houten) where a criminal is famous. But most crimes are anonymous. Prisoners essentially start with a clean slate; we don’t care whether you’re in prison for stealing a car, selling some marijuana, or murdering twenty people. You’re only judged by your actions inside the prison. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/133 "2016-04-19T15:59:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > we don’t care whether you’re in prison for stealing a car, selling some marijuana, or murdering twenty people. You’re only judged by your actions inside the prison. Surely there is a different consideration for someone who machine gunned half the neighborhood and someone who mouthed off at a traffic stop? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/134 "2016-04-19T18:04:38Z")
No real point other than expressing an irony: Leslie Van Houten participated in the murder of Rosemary Labianca and for the past 46 years has been a model prisoner, gotten college degrees, participated in all kinds of prison outreach programs (training guide dogs, literacy, AA sponsoring, etc.). Linda Kesabian, who unlike the monsters she went with could not participate in the murders, ran away from the cult as soon as she could, and without whose testimony none of the Mansons could have been convicted, has not served prison time for this crime, but the past decades have been continual hell and problems with the law (drug dealing and drug related B&E and other offenses) and frequent incarcerations. She probably has PTSD on par with any Vietnam veteran. This could be used to argue both sides of the Van Houten parole: that she’s already had opportunities the more deserving Linda Kesabian didn’t have or that she’s contributed more to society than the woman who went free and didn’t participate in the murders. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/135 "2016-04-19T19:48:36Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Because it’s the law. Don’t get me wrong; Javert is not my hero. The laws themselves can be unjust, and punishments disproportionate. But the law is pretty clear here and Snowden broke it. On the unlikely chance that there’s ever a trial, I’d hope that Snowden’s motivations are a factor in (reduced) sentencing. But as I’ve said, a key part of justice is equal application of the law, regardless of whether we like the guy or not. The exact same thing could be said for Van Houten. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/136 "2016-04-19T20:10:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Surely there is a different consideration for someone who machine gunned half the neighborhood and someone who mouthed off at a traffic stop? Obviously their crime will have some effect on what type of prison they’re sent to. But on a day-to-day basis, it means nothing. In the prison system, we only care about their behavior inside prisons. What they did on the outside was mostly immaterial - and in most cases, employees don’t even know what crime a prisoner did. The machine gunner might be a quiet prisoner who never breaks the rules while the mouthy guy might be a trouble maker who’s always causing problems. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/137 "2016-04-19T20:49:15Z")
I’ve wondered if what made Van Houten and also Patricia Krenwinkel model inmates is the same follower mentality that led them to Manson. As mentioned in the older thread, I agree with her parole not because I think she’s paid her debt or learned her lesson but because she’s done everything the law says she should do to get parole. Frankly, had she been sentenced to death before death sentences were commuted I’d have had no problem with that either and would not have considered it injustice- I in fact think Manson would be pretty much a forgotten footnote had he been executed in the 1970s. However, under the law even Leslie Van Houten’s eligibility as established by the state of California must be honored as if she were any other prisoner. (OTOH, I was very glad Atkins died after a painful illness in prison and was denied compassionate release, so I’m not totally consistent in my views.) My main concern with Van Houten on the outside is how she would deal with her celebrity. She’s going to be sought after for interviews and by curiosity seekers, and the ones who adulate her and want selfies with her would probably do more damage than the ones who spit at her in the street. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/138 "2016-04-19T21:50:06Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I’ve wondered if what made Van Houten and also Patricia Krenwinkel model inmates is the same follower mentality that led them to Manson. Interesting observation. She’s substituting one leader and role model she emulates (prison system) for another (Manson). > [@Sampiro](#): > > Frankly, had she been sentenced to death before death sentences were commuted I’d have had no problem with that either and would not have considered it injustice- I in fact think Manson would be pretty much a forgotten footnote had he been executed in the 1970s. They WERE both sentenced to death. Their sentences were commuted when the death penalty was abolished in CA in 1972. They should have been commuted to life without parole rather than life with possibility of parole, but they weren’t, which is why we are here now. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/139 "2016-04-19T22:17:59Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I’ve wondered if what made Van Houten and also Patricia Krenwinkel model inmates is the same follower mentality that led them to Manson. An interesting point. > [@Sampiro](#): > > My main concern with Van Houten on the outside is how she would deal with her celebrity. She’s going to be sought after for interviews and by curiosity seekers, and the ones who adulate her and want selfies with her would probably do more damage than the ones who spit at her in the street. Some might want to do her injury, or kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272/140 "2016-04-20T04:00:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You admit you have a gut feeling about crime. But then you talk about how you can prove it’s true by testing its falsibility. I’m sorry, but it’s you that have missed it. My claims as expressed here run _contrary_ to my gut feeling. It’s why I have a grossly enlarged prefrontal cortex, so that I can behave in a way opposite to my instincts when logic or evidence dictates. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > it’s based on the premise that the reason for imprisonment is to prevent recidivism. And that’s not a given. The purpose of imprisonment is the topic we’re discussing. You are close to being right here: I am taking as a premise that punishment must have some practical purpose, of which prevention of recidivism is but one. You have not offered even a hint of a reason why we should follow your opinion on “justice”, which frankly goes against hundreds (thousands?) of years of human development. There is a reason why we say “justice is blind.” And there’s a reason why our personification of justice is a blindfolded lady holding scales, and not, say, Judge Dredd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leslie-van-houten-recommended-for-parole/752272.md?page=8)