# less gas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2001, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996 "2001-05-10T14:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/1 "2001-05-10T14:02:49Z")
No, not about Taco bell, but gasoline. If a lot of people took the bus more often and bought gas less, would it affect the prices? What WOULD make the price go down? What makes it go up? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/2 "2001-05-10T14:06:00Z")
1. Probably not. 2. The finding of an oil field the size of Canada. 3. Scarcity, and (secret) price arrangements between major oil companies. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/3 "2001-05-10T15:14:19Z")
The best idea I’ve heard lately for consumer price input is the idea of not cutting back on gas purchases per se, but simply eliminating purchases from the largest gas distributor, Exxon. If everybody were to buy their gas elsewhere, Exxon would be forced to reduce prices. It sounds good from an Austrian viewpoint, but I’m not sure how Keynesians see it. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/4 "2001-05-10T23:17:59Z")
Coldfire wrote: > [@](#): > > 1. Scarcity, and (secret) price arrangements between major oil companies. If they’re secret, how come you know about 'em? ---
**Author:** ![catmandu42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ab097/32.png) [@catmandu42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catmandu42)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/5 "2001-05-11T00:34:24Z")
It’s really not the oil companies that make the price go up, you know. It’s those greedy OPEC guys. Usually they meet every once in a while to decide amongst themselves if they are making enough money. If they don’t think so, they cut production. Oil is more scarce, and therefore price goes up. Things that would change this situation would be… 1. Drilling new wells in Alaska. There’s a WHOLE LOT of oil up there just waiting to be tapped. Only problem is that we would probably have to drill through the chest of some eco-freak who had chained himself to the drilling site. 2. More offshore oil wells. Again, lots and lots of oil just off our shores. Again, the same problem as in #1. 3. Everyone switches to natural gas. This is one thing that the US has more of than anyone else. Cars running on this stuff produce as close to zero pollution as you could ask for. Problems with this include lack of distribution centers, cost-prohibitive conversions for exsisting cars, and the safety nuts over at the Transportation Department. 4. Invade and take over the entire middle east. While this might be viewed as a somewhat unpopular move by 99.9% of the rest of humanity, WE would be sitting pretty. And we have already proved once that we could do it if we REALLY wanted to. hehe. 5. Some physicist needs to get off his ass and develop cold fusion pronto! ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/6 "2001-05-11T00:42:11Z")
Tracer: I can’t speak for the United Stated, but recently, the Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs started a thorough investigation on alleged price negotiations between the larger oil companies (Shell, Esso [Exxon], Q8, BP, Texaco, et cetera). Guess what? Their hunch was right. But I suppose I could have worded that a little better up there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/7 "2001-05-13T06:08:11Z")
catmandu42 wrote: > [@](#): > > 1. Some physicist needs to get off his ass and develop cold fusion pronto! 1. We build lots of nuclear fission power plants, like in France and Japan, thus freeing up the petroleum that would otherwise be burned in oil-fired electric power plants for automotive use. 2. We switch over to methanol-powered cars, like they use in the Indy 500. Methanol can be made from coal, which, like natural gas, we have a whole bunch of in the U.S… 3. We develop a much more efficient means of storing electric energy than the lead-acid batteries of today. This paves the way for electric cars. (It also paves the way for the power companies to store electric energy generated in off-hours for use during peak hours, so we poor downtrodden Californians don’t have to worry about rolling blackouts anymore.) ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/8 "2001-05-13T07:25:34Z")
Some answers: #1) That’s a problem? #3) Actually, a Propane or Natural Gas conversion for a carbureted vehicle is fairly inexpensive. The spendy part is the pressurized tank to hold the gas. And then the rest- no local “filling station”, mileage is reduced, the weight penalty of the heavy tank, etc. But for over 100 octane on Propane, and almost zero contamination of the engine’s oil, reduced wear, etc, Propane or natural gas make for great automotive fuels. #5) I’d bet they’re working on it. 🙂 #6) Except for NIMBY, the EPA, the DEC, any eco-group you can name, the lack of any place to put the spent fuels, the huge cash outlays and years worth of paperwork, that’s a great idea. 😃 #7) Except that one must burn something like 2-1/2 times more alcohol than gasoline to produce equivalent power. Plus the fact that alcohols are bad on various rubber and plastic fuel line parts (seals, pump diaphragms, flexible hoses, etc) and it absorbs moisture from the air voraciously (adding rust/corrosion into the mix, the possibility of freezing, etc.) Plus it’s difficult to get an alky-fueled car started in cold weather. Other than all that, it’s a great idea. 😃 #8) Actually fuel-cells will be more efficient than any battery, both as a source and as a storage medium. But they’re more complex, heavier, cost more and require more maintenence. But again, you can be quite certain that someone IS working on both ideas. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mikahw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mikahw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikahw)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/9 "2001-05-13T07:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*The best idea I’ve heard lately for consumer price input is the idea of not cutting back on gas purchases per se, but simply eliminating purchases from the largest gas distributor, Exxon. If everybody were to buy their gas elsewhere, Exxon would be forced to reduce prices. It sounds good from an Austrian viewpoint, but I’m not sure how Keynesians see it. \*\* Not according to snopes. See [this](http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/petition/gasout.htm) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/10 "2001-05-13T13:13:15Z")
A big and fast way to reduce the gas prices is to drop the tax. Also dropping the requirements for reforulated gas would help a bit too. Longer term solutions are to increase supply (and get more suppliers including Alaska). Reducing demand probally would not work as energy drives our ecomony. Switching to an alternitive, competivally priced fuel would help. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/11 "2001-05-13T23:33:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > A big and fast way to reduce the gas prices is to drop the tax. Also dropping the requirements for reforulated gas would help a bit too. In the UK, sure. But there, 75% of the price is tax. In the US, you won’t get a big drop, as the tax is less than half the cost of the fuel. And if we dropped the tax, how would we pay for road repairs/improvements? For eliminating reformulated gas, I agree. I assume you are talking about the stuff we get in the winter that drops your mileage 10 to 20 percent. That has ethanol in it, I think. (I’m pretty sure they stopped putting MTBE in it.) One possibility would be to add polyisobutene to gasoline. Last year there was a [report](http://www.cstorecentral.com/register/resource/daily/dn0828005.html) that this would improve mileage as well as cut polution (thereby making reformulated gas unnecessary). But I haven’t been able to find any developments since then. No doubt the oil companies have bought it up and stashed it next to the 100 mpg carburetors… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/12 "2001-05-14T01:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > In the UK, sure. But there, 75% of the price is tax. In the US, you won’t get a big drop, as the tax is less than half the cost of the fuel. And if we dropped the tax, how would we pay for road repairs/improvements? I’m not exactly sure what the tax is, but I believe dropping it would lower the price easily $0.50/gal. Also as for all this about road repair, well the gov’t is currently running a surplus which means it is taking too much money from us. Lowering the price of fuel will (IMHO) help out the lower working classes much more then the upper classes as fuel is a bigger % of their budget. > [@](#): > > For eliminating reformulated gas, I agree. I assume you are talking about the stuff we get in the winter that drops your mileage 10 to 20 percent. That has ethanol in it, I think. (I’m pretty sure they stopped putting MTBE in it.) They have 2 formulations in many places, a summer blend that decreases NOx, power and fuel ecc all while increasing price and a winter blend that reduces CO, fuel ecc while increasing price and fouling fuel filters and carberators. MBTE was banned in my area so we are stuch w/ ethanol blends. (I think the MBTE was better for the engine) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/13 "2001-05-14T02:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by tracer (8) We develop a much more efficient means of storing electric energy than the lead-acid batteries of today. This paves the way for electric cars. (It also paves the way for the power companies to store electric energy generated in off-hours for use during peak hours, so we poor downtrodden Californians don’t have to worry about rolling blackouts anymore.)_ It may actually happen, thanks to the laptop! Laptops spurred the development of practical flat-screen monitors, and they’re spurring the development of compact, cheap, high capacity rechargable batteries. ---
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/14 "2001-05-14T02:50:40Z")
> [@](#): > > If a lot of people took the bus more often and bought gas less, would it affect the prices? > What WOULD make the price go down? > What makes it go up? Well, if you take the bus, then you won’t have to care what other people are paying for gas, will you? **Coldfire** , the Clinton administration’s justice department did no find any evidence of collusion or conspiracy on the part of the oil companies. Now, that was a year ago, but I don’t think anything has changed. I find it hard to believe that, were the US to improve fleet gas milage from an average of 26 mpg to, say, 52 mpg, that the proce of gas wouldn’t go down. Is there some reason that the price of gasoline is untied from demand for it? **k2dave** The lower working class have a tendency to live closer to roads and freeways (at least here in Cali ), and to not have health insurance. Lower gas prices would hurt them, not help them. Raise the tax on gasoline, and invest the proceeds into mass transit, and, hell, lowering income taxes. Makes the US a better global citizen, and helps the poor. oh, and > [@](#): > > I think the MBTE was better for the engine Yeah, but it was a bummer about the water supply, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/less-gas/64996/15 "2001-05-14T03:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > I’m not exactly sure what the tax is, but I believe dropping it would lower the price easily $0.50/gal. I believe the federal gas tax is about .18/gal; states vary, but here in Oregon it's .24/gal. > [@](#): > > Also as for all this about road repair, well the gov’t is currently running a surplus which means it is taking too much money from us. In that case, they should be reducing general taxes. The gas tax is dedicated to road projects. That’s not the case in all countries. Some treat gas taxes like other revenue and tend to have the highest gas taxes. > [@](#): > > MBTE was banned in my area so we are stuch w/ ethanol blends. (I think the MBTE was better for the engine) It’s MTBE (Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether). There’s lots of controversy about this additive and you can find out all about it with a simple web search.