# Lessons Learned \[by the Democrats from the 2004 elections\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990 "2004-11-04T16:28:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/21 "2004-11-04T19:59:34Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > I think this is a common miscomprehension. The fact is that some of the largest Dem voting blocks are people with no high school degree and people making under 30k a year. We have the dumb poor people. We’re loosing the middle class. The middle class is full of “dumb” too… they were included… especially the lower middle class. Of the “no-high school” 10% more voted for Bush. Latinos were 7% more for Bush than in 2000. That was what handed Bush the election. Still your right… Dems have a lot of votes in these groups. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/22 "2004-11-04T20:06:29Z")
The Republicans didn’t just win by luck or by chance or by the swings and roundabouts. The Republican victory has been in the planning stages for 35 years and they’re going to keep winning so long as the Democrats don’t wise up. The Democrats have to start doing what the Republicans decided to do in 1964 – build an organized, disciplined, and pervasive propaganda machine that delivers and reinforces simple talking points on a daily basis. Part of that is, of course, distilling Democratic values into simple talking points that appeal to the mainstream. The Republicans have done this with “values” and “it’s your money; you should keep it.” Yes, these messages are essentially dishonest, but it’s simply what has to be done. Part of that is effectively silencing dissent and dischord within the party by shutting out people who air their grievances in public. Look at people like John McCain and Colin Powell. They clearly despise the group that has taken control of the policy apparatus of their , but they toe the line, because, they know that if they don’t, they’ll be out on their ears. Part of that is filling key positions in the party with true believers and getting rid of the professional campaign and political managers. Part of that is using fund-raising ability to establish a complex network of non-profits, think tanks, and media outlets who will provide the true believers a living while they going about getting things done. Part of that is being ruthless towards the opposition and repeating talking points shamelessly even if they are patently absurd. Part of that is (once you’ve established a majority) being ruthless with regard to democratic institutions, such as elections, constitutions, the regulatory system, and the legislative process. Force a recall if you have to. Get the constitution changed if you have to. The Republicans are not playing “Let’s Debate Policy like Nice People.” They haven’t for 35 years. It’s a new world and the Democratic party has to wake up to it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/23 "2004-11-04T20:08:16Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > Good idea for a thread. Thank you. The military does some things right, and one of them is the way they study engagement afterwards to discover what they could have done better, and what they did well, so they can apply those lessons to future engagements. It’s really what Dems generally should be doing once they get the wailing and the gnashing of teeth out of their system. Not that I begrudge them that, it’s just that you need to plan if you want to win next time. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure this would work. I think that anything less than a plank in the platform, backed by vocal action, to overturn any gay unions anywhere passed by any means would be inadequate to defuse this issue. I feel that even had the Massachusetts gay marriage legalization been passed by legislation rather than via the judiciary it would still be proof positive about how _those_ people think. I agree that it will take a very strong stand by the Dems to get out from under the stigma of being the “Gay Marriage” party, and that the Pubbies will do everything in their power to label them as such and make it stick. And if they CAN make it stick, and attitudes don’t change, the Dems are fucking DOOMED, they might as well just rename themselves the Gay Party and resign themselves to pulilng in maybe 10 percent of the vote in every election from here on out. So maybe a plank just opposing gay marriage, but saying nothing about civil unions, and let the Dem pols make their own statements as individual on the topic. Problem is, I can see the gays sitting out the next election or going to a third party candidate who’ll supprot them en masse – what would they have to lose in doing so? > [@](#): > > The only trick is to avoid the abortion issue. Doesn’t seem that tough to me. Just compartmentalize. Have a pro-choice plank, but keep it entirely separate from the values plank. When it’s brought up, just respond to abortion as a civil rights issue. Whole different animal. > [@](#): > > Other than that, values wise, there is no reason the Dem’s shouldn’t be able to run the table on values. Yeah, given the results of the last election, this is also the most important things Dems need to do if they’re going to grab a bigger chunk of that mainstream vote and avoid being marginalized senseless. I do think there’s an opportunity here for the Dems to hurt the Pubs while making some gains for themselves. There are a lot of mainstream American churches that do not share the values of the fundamentalists who are leading the Repub values movement. We should grab the mainstream and then embark on a systematic campaign to marginalize the fundies … call their church leaders "mullahs’ and otherwise establish a link between American Christian fundamentalists and Moslem fundamentalists – two strains of the same evil. > [@](#): > > The problem is that most prominent blue staters don’t speak fluent church. This strikes me as something a fluent public speaker could pick up pretty quickly if they had to. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/24 "2004-11-04T20:09:09Z")
Oh, and one more thing – a disagreement over policy is not just a disagreement over policy. One position is American; the other is un-American. One position is good; the other is evil. Metaphorically speaking, Democrats and liberals have to start learning to eat raw meat and drink the blood of their opponents. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/25 "2004-11-04T20:12:05Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Consider that for all the hype about the number of jobs lost since Bush became president, by the time of his re-election the unemployment rate was back down to 1996 levels. And that most of the people who voted for him _did_ believe they were better off, economically, than they were four years ago. Not so, if you believe the exit polls, and numerous studies. People will vote _against_ their own economic advantage if there are perceived “moral issues” at stake. I purposely put _moral issues_ in quotes. I’m assuming you know why (remembering that you are a self-identified neo-con). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/26 "2004-11-04T20:30:40Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > I disagree - unless you only want to preach to the choir. But why bother? They already voted for a Dem candidate and the Dems lost. You want to reach the moderates - particularly the middle-of-the-road republicans who are discouraged with the far right. And you do NOT want to put them on the defensive. > > This kind of statement always always always makes me stop hearing the rest of the message - whether it is the right or the left that trumpets it. I am tired of the hate speaches. Good god, it seems like we have hundreds of them I disagree. If you look at what the Pubbies did to Clinton during his Presidency and all the negative ads, hate speech works very, very very well whether you like it or not. I think the Dems need to move heavily into hate speech – we need to do the same thing to Bush that the Pubbies did to Clinton. We need to publicly call him a reformed coke addict, a cowardly sneak who glories in sending the children of poor people off to be killed and maimed in a war he would have run from like a cowardly cur as a young man. I don’t think the current crop of Dem leaders have the rocks to do anything like this, another reason we need new leadership. Hate works, we have to use it if we intend to win. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/27 "2004-11-04T20:38:21Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > A person at work when telling me why she voted for Bush even though she disagreed with his policies it was “Well Kerry hasn’t answered the accusations of the Vietnam war issues, Well Kerry is a Flip flopper, well Kerry isn’t a leader” For a minute I honestly thought she was totally out of the loop but then I realized it was the Democrats fault for not having their own Bill O’Reilly and Fox to stump for them or at least counter what was being said about them. The people won’t educate themselves it’s easier for them to be told what to think then to research the answer…at least if you want your party to win elections. That’s it right there. The media is saturated with right-wing talk shows, while the left basically has only Howard Stern and Al Franken, and Franken has only been able to get his show on the air in a few markets. There aren’t _any_ left wing political shows on TV, unless you count the Daily Show, which is a toss-up as to whether you’d consider it serious political commentary or simply comedy. But how would the party go about getting more shows on the air? That’s under the control of the media conglomerates that own the stations. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/28 "2004-11-04T20:40:08Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Good luck with that… the problem with such a message is that every time there is any success in America- if the economy gets better, unemployment goes down, etc.- you look like you don’t know what you’re talking about. > > Consider that for all the hype about the number of jobs lost since Bush became. Didn’t seem to be a problem for the Pubbies when they were criticizing Clinton for everything from his haircut to his bloodthirstily putting Americans at risk just to get revenge on an obscure towelhead named Osama bin Laden. Don’t see why it’s going to be a problem for the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/29 "2004-11-04T20:45:44Z")
Well, for what it’s worth, here are some of the lessons I’ve learned: In America, it is more politically effective to employ lies, smears, and innuendo than to have an honest debate about the actual issues. Hateful, negative campaign politics have, with this election, come into their own. Democracy is highly overrated. To function properly, a democracy requires a critical, informed public. When the public is predominantly ignorant and lazy, democracy is no better a form of government than dictatorship, and can be just as repressive, arbitrary, and brutal. The majority of Americans don’t really understand the concepts of democracy or freedom. Although there is a certain amount of synergy between the leading elite and the masses (in that the elite do, to some extent, influence the views of the masses), no one can now deny that the Bush administration reflects the actual will (and values) of the American public. This realization, which has come to me over the course of a couple of days, sickens me. While the rest of the western world continues to move forward, the US is developing backwards. The right wing in American has a stranglehold on the reins of power, and its influence is continuing to grow. At this point, I fear nothing short of a major catastrophe will be able to stop it. As much as I admire the attempt to nurture a progressive grassroots network by the left, I suspect that it is doomed to failure until such a catastrophe occurs, and maybe even afterwards. The left has never successfully established a beachhead in America, and probably never will. These are a few things that I’ve been mulling over since Kerry conceded. But I disagree with him when he claims that the US needs to “heal.” And I say to any of you on the left that are still out there: fuck that. I will not extend a hand to that lying son of a bitch who squeaked his way into a second term, nor to the flunkies that continue to support him. He is not my president, and the country he represents is not my country. I tell you, I find the thought of another four years with that lunkhead as president insufferable. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/30 "2004-11-04T20:46:47Z")
As to the OP: > [@Evil Captor](#): > > So, what worked, and what didn’t? Here’s my take on it: > > WORKED: > > 1. Internet fundraising. Definitely want to keep working at that. It makes sense to fight the overwhelming advantage Pubbies have with their corporate sugar daddies by going direct to the people. Very Democratic, very effective. > > 2. Partisanship. High emotions meant great voter turnout. Keep the faithful interested and voting, yes indeedy. > > 3. Fighting Republican vote rigging prior to the election, sending out lawyers. Kept the bastids honest. Frankly, it was easier for me emotionally to lose this election honestly than to lose the 2000 election via Republican theft and fraud. A lot of votes got cast that might not otherwise have been cast. > > So, what do you folks think? 1. Yes. 2. No. What did Kerry’s campaign do or say to rally the left of center base? 3)No. Why are you so sure it was an “honest” loss? Think about the skewed exit polls for Ohio and Florida, and the no-paper-trail e-voting in use there. Think about how quickly Kerry conceded with no mention of the voting irregularities, even after people in those states waited _up to 8 hours in line_ to cast their vote. Perhaps it wouldn’t have mattered - I admit the right seems to have rallied their vote more successfully. Even so, shouldn’t _all_ Americans be interested in a transparent, audit-able, and accessable voting process? Kerry/Edwards _chose_ not to litigate the results. For whatever reasons. Problem is, we can’t be certain they were not self-serving reasons. I don’t like a supposedly democratic process with that much room for suspicion and error. We can do better. > [@](#): > > DIDN’T WORK: > > 1. Values, generally. The churches really got their people out and voting. The Dems’ best counter-strategy would be to develop an official set of values not founded on any particular religiious faith, and promote them as mainstream American values. Sanctity of marriage, opposition to corporate greed, respect for the environment and most of all, fiscal responsibility would be good starters. Fuck “counter-strategies”. Your values are your values, irrespective of what’s out there. or what the cost is of standing by them. The big question asked of any idea is: What kind of an idea are you? Do you bend in the wind, do you compromise, are you willing to be shattered by the forces against you? If you don’t have “values” that can stand up to that test, you will never win (or win for long). 999,000,000 times out of 1,000,000, you will be shattered. But the idea that stands that test wins. Always. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/31 "2004-11-04T20:47:31Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > This strikes me as something a fluent public speaker could pick up pretty quickly if they had to. It’s gotta be the real deal or all is for naught. It’s a tightrope. > [@](#): > > I disagree. If you look at what the Pubbies did to Clinton during his Presidency and all the negative ads, hate speech works very, very very well whether you like it or not. I think the Dems need to move heavily into hate speech – we need to do the same thing to Bush that the Pubbies did to Clinton. We need to publicly call him a reformed coke addict, a cowardly sneak who glories in sending the children of poor people off to be killed and maimed in a war he would have run from like a cowardly cur as a young man. > > I don’t think the current crop of Dem leaders have the rocks to do anything like this, another reason we need new leadership. > > Hate works, we have to use it if we intend to win Sigh. The problem I have with this approach is that we want to have a functioning, civil society. If we go the route you are suggesting we end up with a paralyzed Congress regardless of who is in power. We have to somehow nullify the permanent outrage the GOP feeds off of, not get into an arms race of hatred. I don’t hate Bush voters. I think that deep down our values aren’t antithetical (abstractly speaking). ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/32 "2004-11-04T20:47:33Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > 1. The Repubs got a lot of milage out of the fiscal conservative message back in the 90’s. Given that Bush is now spending money at a rate that would disgust Ted Kenney, the deficit is almost certain to grow. Also, rightly or wrongly, people associate the suplus of the late 90’s with the Dems, so this should help add to their creditbility on the issue. The Dems should steal this issue and run with it. This will also allow them to find allies amongst the Repub fiscal conservatives. This is a great point. Democrat presidents have a better record of fiscal responsibility than Republican ones. It’s a statistical fact, so why isn’t it getting out there? ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/33 "2004-11-04T20:49:04Z")
If I were unconstrained by facts than I could simply say “no they aren’t” or “fuzzy math” every time you tried to illustrate your point with numbers or graphics. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/34 "2004-11-04T20:56:34Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > If I were unconstrained by facts than I could simply say “no they aren’t” or “fuzzy math” every time you tried to illustrate your point with numbers or graphics. Ain’t _that_ the truth. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/35 "2004-11-04T21:01:13Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > 999,000,000 times out of 1,000,000, you will be shattered. But the idea that stands that test wins. Always. Make that 999,000 out of 1,000,000.\* \*Ironically, I was only last week certified to teach math and science. We’re all doomed, I tell you. Doomed. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/36 "2004-11-04T21:05:58Z")
Here is an issue that would get me off the political fence: illegal immigration. I voted for Bush (_ducks rotten tomatoes_), but I know that he will never ever do anything about closing our Mexican border. That is the last thing Texas corporate farmers want, and I doubt Bush would do any thing to upset them. [85% of Americans](http://www.npg.org/immpoll.html) and a significant percentage of [Hispancs](http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/publicop.html#hispanics) believe that illegal immigration is a serious problem. It would be a way for Democrats to present a strong defence stance without competing with Republicans (avoiding “I’d do the same thing, only better”- type statements) AND they would be exposing a huge hole in the Republican platform. I’m sure that there are other issues that will similarly mobilize voters who feel screwed by the Republicans but confused by the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/37 "2004-11-04T21:06:14Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Make that 999,000 out of 1,000,000.\* > > \*Ironically, I was only last week certified to teach math and science. We’re all doomed, I tell you. Doomed. :smack: 999,999 out of 1,000,000.\* \*Hey, at least I was right about the “doomed” part. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/38 "2004-11-04T22:12:24Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I disagree. If you look at what the Pubbies did to Clinton during his Presidency and all the negative ads, hate speech works very, very very well whether you like it or not. I think the Dems need to move heavily into hate speech – we need to do the same thing to Bush that the Pubbies did to Clinton. We need to publicly call him a reformed coke addict, a cowardly sneak who glories in sending the children of poor people off to be killed and maimed in a war he would have run from like a cowardly cur as a young man. > > I don’t think the current crop of Dem leaders have the rocks to do anything like this, another reason we need new leadership. > > Hate works, we have to use it if we intend to win. Really? Didn’t Clinton WIN TWICE? Clinton was very good at wooing the moderates. However go ahead, hate away - but don’t expect to swing my vote. And don’t be surprised when you lose again. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/39 "2004-11-04T22:16:23Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > To bring down Bush there was no way about being optimistic and using rose tint glasses. Either you blasted him… or you would lose. Hmmmm, how did that work out for you? ---
**Author:** ![passengerpigeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58f4c7/32.png) [@passengerpigeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/passengerpigeon)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/40 "2004-11-04T22:33:47Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > 1. Gay marriage. As the overwhelming success of the constitutional amendments banning gay marriage, this one is a non-starter for the Dems. Bigoted it might be, hateful it might be, put it’s also overwhelming popular with mainstream voters. From the numbers you have to figure that about the only people who voted for it were the gay voters. The Dems need to discard this issue, and let the gay folks do some grassroots work to get minds changed. An official plank opposing gay marriage but supporting civil unions should do the trick. This issue really confused me, because when it originally came up in San Francisco, all the polls I saw had America pretty neutral on the whole topic. Something else must have been going on. Maybe Bricker was right, and the judicial action scared people into voting for the amendments to keep control of their state. I’m kind of surprised to think that people are that hardcore about state’s rights. –p [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990.md?page=3)