# Lessons Learned \[by the Democrats from the 2004 elections\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990 "2004-11-04T16:28:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/141 "2004-11-10T20:02:33Z")
Damn Aaron MacGruder for nailing Limbaugh’s mannerisms so perfectly! 😉 (Hey, tell me again how Rush says the prisoner torture at Abu Girade were just frathouse hijinks, eh?) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/142 "2004-11-10T20:06:16Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Heh. **rjung** ’s source is, apparently, a Boondocks cartoon that was satirizing Limbaugh. > > [http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/limbaugh2.asp](http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/limbaugh2.asp) Uh huh. Well, I’m sure he’ll be along to retract and apologize, as any intellectually honest poster would. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/143 "2004-11-10T20:29:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, part of the problem is that you are labelling any willingness to compromise as “waffling on the issue”. Your position is marginal, and rejected by the large majority of the voters. If you are not willing to consider changing it, even slightly, you have no chance to appeal to the large majority on the issue. Um, no it’s not, not with the mainstream. > [@](#): > > If you think of what happened to your party a week ago as “working for us”, then of course you would be silly to change anything. I don’t think so, but that doesn’t mean I have to accept, um, _untenable_ ideas from you as the only alternative. False dilemma, boyo. Surely you can do better. > [@](#): > > Well, if you are going to dismiss an obvious solution out of hand, I suspect the voters may not concur as to who has the sinister motives. Yes, I did dismiss an **obviously flawed** solution out of hand – after explaining why it was flawed. When come back, bring argument. > [@](#): > > But as I mentioned earlier, **I** and my party have no real reason to “get some movement on this issue”. We won. I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss what lessons could be learned from the latest Democratic debacle. If you feel as strongly as you seem to that nothing need be learned, I rest content. You won the election, not the abortion debate. Apples and oranges, boyo. > [@](#): > > I have no interest at all in the Democratic party winning with its current positions. If you aren’t going to change _anything_, that works for me - I will continue to vote Republican and get a good deal of what I want, and you can vote Democrat (or socialist, or whatever) and get nothing. Um, Shodan, I think there are a few millions of votes to be had from mainstream Repubs before we have to start working on you. My point about gun control is that dumping it would get us quite a few mainstream votes, without losing many Dem votes. The opposite would happen on the abortion issue. > [@](#): > > Fine with me. Several Dopers have mentioned being put off by the sneering condescension you and others like you feel for pretty much anyone who doesn’t already vote your way. Just because I won’t let you play labelling games, it doesn’t mean I’m sneering or condescending. This dog won’t hunt, son. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/144 "2004-11-10T20:50:02Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Just because I won’t let you play labelling games, it doesn’t mean I’m sneering or condescending. This dog won’t hunt, son. And our nominees for the **Irony Post 2004** competition include… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/145 "2004-11-10T20:53:56Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > And our nominees for the **Irony Post 2004** competition include… Well, so long as it’s not sneering or condescension … ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/146 "2004-11-10T20:55:47Z")
Is there a snarky, _ad hominem_ one-liner competition as well? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/147 "2004-11-10T21:00:00Z")
If there is, I’m the Susan Lucci of it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/148 "2004-11-10T21:07:57Z")
Who? (I suppose I could look it up, if I weren’t so lazy and easily…oooh! look! shiny! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/149 "2004-11-10T22:01:46Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Um, no it’s not, not with the mainstream. Are you saying the majority of the American electorate agrees that partial-birth abortion, and minors getting abortions without their parents being involved at all, are mainstream positions? Interesting. If I could demonstrate that the majority is not really in accord with the positions as stated, and which you categorically refuse to consider adjusting, would you think that is evidence that the position is not mainstream? > [@Evil Captor](#): > > I don’t think so, but that doesn’t mean I have to accept, um, _untenable_ ideas from you as the only alternative. False dilemma, boyo. Surely you can do better. No, as I mentioned several times, if you don’t want to, you don’t have to change a thing. And, if you don’t change a thing, I will be completely happy. If you are as well, it’s a win-win situation. Or, considering that we have three branches of government, perhaps I should say a win-win-win situation. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yes, I did dismiss an **obviously flawed** solution out of hand – after explaining why it was flawed. When come back, bring argument. I don’t believe the idea of parental notification is so obviously flawed. And I expect that a good number of folks agree with me, and the Republican party, on the point. They don’t think it is so obviously flawed. But you are completely sure it is - so sure, you dismiss it out of hand. Again - interesting. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > You won the election, not the abortion debate. Apples and oranges, boyo. Good enough for me, for the moment. Notice as well - who do you expect will appoint the next couple of Supreme Court justices? My party, or yours? Do you think **that** might have just a little effect on winning the abortion debate? > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Um, Shodan, I think there are a few millions of votes to be had from mainstream Repubs before we have to start working on you. Ah, but you see, this is assuming that I am not a “mainstream Republican”. I think I am. I agree, in other words, with 59 million other “mainstream Republicans”. And I was suggesting you might want to think about that, at least briefly, before you dismiss it. If you want. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > My point about gun control is that dumping it would get us quite a few mainstream votes, without losing many Dem votes. The opposite would happen on the abortion issue. Perhaps, and I mentioned the dangers of moving towards the center above. But part of the problem is that you are defining any deviation from your position, even in the slightest, as a complete abandonment. You seem to be thinking of either supporting abortion on demand, all the time, for anyone and everyone, without even thinking about it, and (I suppose) making it completely illegal. Don’t you think that is a rather black-and-white view of the situation? Which is the other problem I mentioned. To an extremist, anyone who disagrees even a little looks like an extremist on the other side. I think the SDMB is more than a little over-populated with that kind of extremist. So, maybe, perhaps, folks like that might not offer the best perspective on how to attract voters. If you see what I mean. It is much of a piece with the sneering condescension I mentioned. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/150 "2004-11-11T00:31:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s very interesting, but I can’t help but note that you did not answer my question Follow them. It’s not that hard to read the rulebook. Get the right type of paper, and make sure its in the right order. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990/151 "2004-11-11T14:07:20Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Follow them. It’s not that hard to read the rulebook. Get the right type of paper, and make sure its in the right order. Hmmm. Could have used your voice during the pre-election days when the Republicans in Ohio were advocating this approach, and Democrats were screaming about how it disenfranchised voters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-learned-by-the-democrats-from-the-2004-elections/272990.md?page=7)