# Lessons of the Iraqi Invasion that are less spoken of... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954 "2003-09-26T12:20:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/41 "2003-09-28T23:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*Oh please do ! I can barely wait ! Smiling already… imagine being operated by a doctor robot ? The future of automatic machines will have to wait for better software… \*\* It was the aegis class cruiser Yorktown and here is the link [MSNavy](http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm) Declan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/42 "2003-09-29T03:18:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*The first Stryker brigade is enroute (or soon will be) to Iraq. These viehicles can handles mines pretty well, and apart from add-on armor plating, will also have a ‘cage’ around them, to prematurely detonate incoming RPGs. > > M1s and M2s are great, but are very expensive to operate. The Marines are pretty happy with their LAVs; Now we’ll see if the Army much talked about uber-LAVs are up to snuff. \*\* The first guerilla casualty made me think the Humvee needed to be replaced by personnel carriers. I’m sure we have an inventory of them that could be quick forwarded to the front. After all, wars are won by adapting to field situations. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/43 "2003-09-29T11:34:49Z")
You probably need 1 soldier for every 15 civilans if you are occupying a country where the majority don’t want you there. But if you are in a country where most do want you there that doesn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/44 "2003-09-29T11:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*You probably need 1 soldier for every 15 civilans if you are occupying a country where the majority don’t want you there. > > But if you are in a country where most do want you there that doesn’t apply. \*\* RandCorp suggested 20+ troops per 1000 inhabitants. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/45 "2003-09-29T11:54:21Z")
Fwiw, I did some teaching for a few months about seven-eight years ago. It was law, and to some 17 year olds. I asked them why they wanted to take this optional class and two of the boys said it was becasue they want to join the British Army. It made me realise how much the military recruitment campaigns (here) had changed in empahsis from war making to peacekeeping – these boys, both from ethnic minorities, wanted to enlist in the _regular Army_ because they were attracted to a _careeer in peacekeeping_. That’s the emphasis here. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/46 "2003-09-29T12:02:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*The first guerilla casualty made me think the Humvee needed to be replaced by personnel carriers. I’m sure we have an inventory of them that could be quick forwarded to the front. After all, wars are won by adapting to field situations. \*\* [Gorilla casualites](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A15042-2003Sep28?language=printer) can occur anywhere! Oh…nevermind. We are replacing/augmenting the Humvees in Iraq with M1116 ‘Up-Armored’ Humvees. Significantly improved armor, along with the Humvees excellent ability to absorb mine damage. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/47 "2003-09-29T13:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Fwiw, I did some teaching for a few months about seven-eight years ago. It was law, and to some 17 year olds. I asked them why they wanted to take this optional class and two of the boys said it was becasue they want to join the British Army. > > It made me realise how much the military recruitment campaigns (here) had changed in empahsis from war making to peacekeeping – these boys, both from ethnic minorities, wanted to enlist in the _regular Army_ because they were attracted to a _careeer in peacekeeping_. > > That’s the emphasis here. \*\* Neat… good to know. Still should specialized “peacekeepers” actually need to be military ? Should EU countries start to have “specialists” with less military skills and more specific training ? There will never be shortage of missions to send them… ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/48 "2003-09-29T13:20:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > I don’t know which part of that makes me laugh the most, the “success” or the “again”. It’s your opinion that the imbedded journalism program wasn’t a success? How so? I must have forgot that it’s not PC on the boards to have any opinion about anything Iraq related that goes beyond a partisan hatred for Bush and Rumsfeld. And yes, **again**. I fully expect the US to be in another war at some point in the future. When this happens I expect that we will see the imbedded journalism program used since it was a success the first time. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/49 "2003-09-29T16:12:44Z")
> [@](#): > > A handful of sweets, or small portable generators,or fuel to run the cars of the inhabitants, these are worth much more than any amount of armoured vehicles. I think your basic point is valid. There was insufficient planning for the aftermath of the quick “victory” that everyone foresaw on the macro military front. OTOH, many people suggested that the regime would go underground and start guerilla fighting. The Islamists have, of course, begun their ‘pilgrimmage’ to Iraq. Baathists haven’t disappeared. Many are quite angry. We do have a long-term macro military problem, in other words. So, even though the problem could have been averted, to an extent, perhaps, with better planning (waiting doesn’t look bad at all, now\*) – we have a problem with soldiers killed by small arms in “up-armored” Humvees. That Marine LAV or the Bradley is the closest we’ve got to an intermediate vehicle. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. \*Moral to all future presidents: make the case for crimes against humanity before you attack your next insane dictator. Dozens of mass graves are not as important as the legal nicieties of Saddam’s “sovereignty” and billions in French and Russian petro dollars. CNN deserves some blame here also. “Happy B-Day, Saddam! XO” ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/50 "2003-09-29T18:09:29Z")
Even though the stated reasons behind the war were at best spurious, at worst outright lies, and even though I am pretty much anti-Bush, Saddam Hussains removal from power may the best thing that has happened to Iraq for a couple of decades. Maybe Western realpolitik in the region is a significant factor, but this was in the context of a cold war, one lesson that could be learned, my enemy’s enemy may not be much of a friend. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/51 "2003-09-29T18:41:25Z")
Well one lesson would be to not use WMDs as a pretense to go to war if you don’t know where they are. At the least it looks like incompetance and at worse it looks like outright deception. The truth largely doesn’t matter, what matters is the perception and how it can be spun by your enemies. Maybe someone with military experience could answer but how are our troops trained for “police actions”? I get the impression that the mindset is 1) locate the target, 2) attack with overwhelming firepower, 3) defend against counterattack which works fine on the battlefield but not so great when the enemy is a dozen guys plotting in a house. I mean imagine how you’d feel if the police busted up the local crackhouses by firing 50cal rounds and Hellfire missles into it? Which is not to say that their firepower isn’t sometimes required. I would also resist the urge to depend on a magic bullet/RPG proof vehicle to win the peace in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/52 "2003-09-29T18:51:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > > - First was that Embargoes can work reasonably. Iraq was certainly weakened considerably compared to 1991. Military and WMD wise too. Of course Saddams opulence and hidden stashes of dollars also prove that embargoes arent perfect. Still this limitation forced him to chose in part between military and luxury. I know I’m going to get flamed for this, but I just can’t stand to see someone whose writing is otherwise excellent consistently make the same mistake. You must use an apostrophe for all possessives and contractions, i.e. _Saddam’s_, _aren’t_, etc. Also, it’s the **Iraq** invasion, not the Iraqi invasion. An Iraqi invasion would be one mounted _by_ Iraq. Commence flaming - I know I deserve it.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/53 "2003-09-29T22:56:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*I know I’m going to get flamed for this, but I just can’t stand to see someone whose writing is otherwise excellent consistently make the same mistake. You must use an apostrophe for all possessives and contractions, i.e. _Saddam’s_, _aren’t_, etc. > > Also, it’s the **Iraq** invasion, not the Iraqi invasion. An Iraqi invasion would be one mounted _by_ Iraq. > > Commence flaming - I know I deserve it.😉 \*\* ``` Argghh... I admit being a lazy bastard for apostrophes... and accents in my own language. I am an equal mistreater of languages therefore... english or otherwise. Funny enough you understood it... as for the Iraqi vs Iraq Invasion... Oooppss... ``` ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/54 "2003-09-29T23:03:27Z")
Try reading this link: [http://www.shreveporttimes.com/html/2C346DCA-132E-4994-B4CB-D62B3BEF0399.shtml](http://www.shreveporttimes.com/html/2C346DCA-132E-4994-B4CB-D62B3BEF0399.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/55 "2003-09-30T08:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*Argghh… I admit being a lazy bastard for apostrophes… and accents in my own language. I am an equal mistreater of languages therefore… english or otherwise. Funny enough you understood it… as for the Iraqi vs Iraq Invasion… Oooppss… \*\* O.K., sorry - I thought maybe you didn’t know, because I realize English uses apostrophes differently than other languages. I’ll shut up now… ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954/56 "2003-09-30T13:39:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I would also resist the urge to depend on a magic bullet/RPG proof vehicle to win the peace in Iraq. Apparently you can buy RPGs in convenience stores in most of the world. Then, we send troops in Hummers. I’m just saying… How about a piece of metal about two inches thick welded on a foot away from the side of the damn thing? Like a turtle’s shell, perhaps? Put so many sandbags on it that the Humvee looks like a pillbox? I’ll stop with this sidetrack - hijack as I agree that there needs to be a lot more in Iraq than armored vehicles to make Iraq work. Any more emphAsis (Dr. Evil) on armoUr would be disproportionate to its importance, unless you have to go to the Baghdad market in a Humvee. In that case I’d make sure to suit up in kevlar and take a couple extra helmets to hug. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lessons-of-the-iraqi-invasion-that-are-less-spoken-of/203954.md?page=2)