# Let Americans Provide Their Own Security **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351 "2004-08-31T02:34:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/81 "2004-09-02T08:08:09Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If you have evidence that this is the position of the NRA or any other gun-rights lobby, _bring it on_. Fight my ignorance. Otherwise, my conclusion stands. You got it. First, [Doctors](http://www.claremont.org/projects/doctors/index.html) then: [hunting teaches Responsible Gun Ownership](http://www.nraila.org//issues/factsheets/read.aspx?id=124) and: [Keith Mehlin, chief of the Council Bluffs Police Department.](http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12577075&BRD=2554&PAG=461&dept_id=507134&rfi=6) and of course the [NRA,](http://www.nra.org/Default.aspx) who for over 100 years has been teaching Responsible Gun Ownership, and a focus on ‘Punish the Criminal, not the gun owner.’ Your conclusion flops. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/82 "2004-09-02T08:13:04Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > You therefore have more work ahead of you if you want to prove that guns result in a decrease in crime. The faulty argument in this segment of the discussion is rather obviously yours, not Tom’s. I take it you were the victim of some questionable gun-lobby propaganda and didn’t intend to mislead your fellow posters, but don’t be so hasty to dismiss a correction next time – especially if it comes from Tom! Yes, good point, I missed something. It’s been a rough week. Then again, so has someone else. I’m not trying to prove an increase in the numbers of guns decreases crime. My intention was to demonstrate that the fear-mongers who said “allowing people to carry guns will result in shootouts on the streets” were wrong. My apologies to anyone I misquoted or misunderstood. Snake ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/83 "2004-09-02T08:20:13Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > You got it. > > First, [Doctors](http://www.claremont.org/projects/doctors/index.html) > > then: [hunting teaches Responsible Gun Ownership](http://www.nraila.org//issues/factsheets/read.aspx?id=124) > > and: [Keith Mehlin, chief of the Council Bluffs Police Department.](http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12577075&BRD=2554&PAG=461&dept_id=507134&rfi=6) > > and of course the [NRA,](http://www.nra.org/Default.aspx) who for over 100 years has been teaching Responsible Gun Ownership, and a focus on ‘Punish the Criminal, not the gun owner.’ > > Your conclusion flops. Er… In none of these links it is mentioned that their interpretation of “responsible” is going into the direction **Fear itself** suggested. And from the third link comes this paragraph: > [@](#): > > First and foremost, I believe strongly in responsible gun ownership. I guess you could say that I am a big Second Amendment guy. I firmly believe in the right in this country to own and possess firearms. I guess most of that is my background. I have been using guns since I can remember. I started out with a BB gun, shooting sparrows and pigeons around the farmyard. Shooting sparrows and pigeons is responsible gun ownership? Color me confused (and worried)… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/84 "2004-09-02T10:59:56Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > You got it. > > First, [Doctors](http://www.claremont.org/projects/doctors/index.html) > > then: [hunting teaches Responsible Gun Ownership](http://www.nraila.org//issues/factsheets/read.aspx?id=124) > > and: [Keith Mehlin, chief of the Council Bluffs Police Department.](http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12577075&BRD=2554&PAG=461&dept_id=507134&rfi=6) > > and of course the [NRA,](http://www.nra.org/Default.aspx) who for over 100 years has been teaching Responsible Gun Ownership, and a focus on ‘Punish the Criminal, not the gun owner.’ > > Your conclusion flops. Thank you for proving my assertiion. All of your cites use a narrow and disingenuous definition of “responsible gun ownership”. No where do they suggest that gun owners are responsible for crimes or tragedies committed because they failed to secure their guns. In fact, none of your cites even offer any definition of “responsible gun ownership”. It looks like you lose again. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/85 "2004-09-02T12:34:58Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Thank you for proving my assertiion. All of your cites use a narrow and disingenuous definition of “responsible gun ownership”. No where do they suggest that gun owners are responsible for crimes or tragedies committed because they failed to secure their guns. In fact, none of your cites even offer any definition of “responsible gun ownership”. And you probably won’t find any cites were gun owners say they should go to jail for someone else’s criminal actions. If someone breaks into my house, steals one of my firearms, and then commits another crime, _I’m responsible_? If you park your car at a 7-11 or Circle K, it gets stolen and the crack head who stole it crashes into and kills a family of four, are you responsible? Tragedies are just that, and one’s committed via negligent discharge of a firearm are far less than what’s reported in the media. Unfortunately, there are irresponsible gun owners in the world, hopefully law enforcement and Darwin’s theory will win out and thin their ranks. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/86 "2004-09-02T12:35:10Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Thank you for proving my assertiion. All of your cites use a narrow and disingenuous definition of “responsible gun ownership”. No where do they suggest that gun owners are responsible for crimes or tragedies committed because they failed to secure their guns. In fact, none of your cites even offer any definition of “responsible gun ownership”. > It looks like you lose again. Gun owners are already legally responsible, under the laws that deal with reckless endangerment, criminal negligence, manslaughter, discharging within city limits etc. Responsibility means just what it says. Treat it carefully, never point it at anyone, never shoot in the air because the bullet will come down somewhere, never leave it where the kids can get to it, and NEVER assume it is unloaded. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/87 "2004-09-02T19:56:58Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > It looks like you lose again. Looks like you just read selectively and impose your narrow and disingenuous definition of “responsible gun ownership” on everything you read. Sorry, you’re outgunned. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/88 "2004-09-03T00:40:27Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > Looks like you just read selectively and impose your narrow and disingenuous definition of “responsible gun ownership” on everything you read. Perhaps. So why don’t you just post a quote of the exact passage from your cites that proves me wrong? You can do _that_, can’t you? **crickets chirping** ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/89 "2004-09-03T01:15:26Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Had a few teachers been trained in the use, carry, and storage of firearms, could the massacre have been prevented? Possibly. It can be safely said that not arming a few teachers was not effective. This single quote is so entirely frightening that it bears repetition. I would encourage you, sir, to provide us all with overwhelming cite proving that arming school teachers and Administrators provides for a safer and more healthy educational environment in the United States of America. No, forget that. That’s silly. I would encourage you to provide us all with a single cite proving this. While culling through what must be **hundreds** of cites supporting this idea, you may stumble across [This Worldwide selection of School Gun Assaults and Murders](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html). It does not support your idea. I felt it was worth sharing here anyway. Just thought I’d add some hard facts in here. Cartooniverse, devout Pacifist ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/90 "2004-09-03T03:40:26Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > I checked out your site, and I have to change my assumptions. Although it really seems to be a mixed bag, I have to agree that there was a corresponding change in crime when gun laws were introduced in Australia. > > However, it _was_ a mixed bag, as my emphasis below denotes: > > /snip/ > > I withdraw my mistaken allegation that banning firearms and a rising violent crime rate are the norm in Australia (except for rape, which has been increasing dramatically). > > Thank you for fighting ignorance! No problem - glad I was of help. On the rape thing (slight hijack sorry) - it is _reported_ rape that is increasing. Women are finding it easier to report rape now. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/91 "2004-09-04T05:44:26Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Perhaps. So why don’t you just post a quote of the exact passage from your cites that proves me wrong? You can do _that_, can’t you? > > **crickets chirping** Sure… as I get the time. Priorities, and all that. Please be patient, or (novel idea) read more with a discerning eye! **crickets chirping** Those crickets so hate to be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/92 "2004-09-06T00:15:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In an ideal world, perhaps. > But we don’t live in one of those. > [However, most killings occur in inner-city areas where crack cocaine is prevalent and firearms easy to come by. The center found that less than 1 percent of all homicides involving children aged 5 to 19 occurred in or around school grounds or on the way to or from school. The real problem then seems to be not violence in schools but the easy availability of guns.](http://www.iht.com/IHT/SR/021400/sr021400.html) It seems the problem in part lies in the assumption that problems with crime and violence are the same throughout the US. City problems are different than suburban/rural problems. That seems to account for the difference in attitudes toward firearms. I live in a city. I think the “less guns” approach is the one for my area. I also believe that the availability of a gun creates the potential for a crime of passion, and that this issue transcends geographic boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/93 "2004-09-09T03:36:16Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > While culling through what must be **hundreds** of cites supporting this idea, you may stumble across [This Worldwide selection of School Gun Assaults and Murders](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html). It does not support your idea. I felt it was worth sharing here anyway. Certainly worth sharing. It shows that exclusionism and bigotry account for most cases of school terror, murders and massacres. Can we not teach our children well? ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/94 "2004-09-09T03:44:01Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I am in favor of responsible gun ownership. Specifically, gun owners are responsible for what ever happens with their weapon. Your kid shoots the neighbor kid? You go to Jail. Burglar steals it and commits a crime? You go to Jail. You shoot your teenager sneaking in after curfew? You go to Jail. Gun owners are responsible for any negative consequences that occur as a result of the owner not maintaining adequate control over their gun. It’s like owning a pit bull; it’s your right to own one, but no matter how bizarre the circumstances, if someone gets hurt, you are responsible. But I don’t hear any gun rights advocates supporting anything close to this, apparently they have a very narrow definition of “responsible”. Fuck 'em, take away their guns. Irresponsible bastards. Sorry about that. Like I said, it’s been a rough week. Your description of responsibility is ludicrous. If I steal your car and run over someone should you be responsible? We have laws for a reason. laws thAT HAVE BEEN DEBATED AND WELL-THOUGHT-OUT. If you break the law you are responsible. You are irresponsible; trying to blame the victims for the crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/95 "2004-09-09T05:34:58Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > Sorry about that. Like I said, it’s been a rough week. > > Your description of responsibility is ludicrous. > > If I steal your car and run over someone should you be responsible? > > We have laws for a reason. laws thAT HAVE BEEN DEBATED AND WELL-THOUGHT-OUT. If you break the law you are responsible. You are irresponsible; trying to blame the victims for the crimes. **Fear Itself** ’s car is not intended to injure or kill living things, whereas a gun is. If you steal his car and kill someone, you are using his car for a purpose not intended by its original design. If you steal his weapon (because it was irresponsibly stored) and use it for the basic purpose it was designed for, he is responsible for allowing access to a deadly instrument. Granted, that scenario requires regulations on the storage of firearms, but you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/96 "2004-09-09T06:32:36Z")
> [@Call me Frank](#): > > **Fear Itself** ’s car is not intended to injure or kill living things, whereas a gun is. This rhetoric does not make his car any less deadly; nor is his responsibility to ensure it does not fall into the wrong hands any different than that of a firearm. Would you feel better if your child was killed by an instrument not designed to kill? The responsibility for any dangerous object should be the same, whether a gun, a machete, a car or a nuke. If you are taking the responsibility to own it you should also be responsible for ensuring its safe use. If someone circumvents your legal efforts to ensure its safety, they take the responsibility upon themselves. I agree. There should be laws to ensure safe storage of firearms. In some jurisdictions, (like where I live), there are. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/97 "2004-09-09T06:49:30Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > Your description of responsibility is ludicrous. > > If I steal your car and run over someone should you be responsible? But that isn’t what was brought up. A car is not an explicit weapon, it is an object of transportation that may in rare cases be used as a weapon. The example provided was that of a dangerous animal bred and often trained for extreme violence – i.e., a weapon. I don’t like arguments by analogy, however let’s take a look at this one. If your pitbull breaks out of the shabby enclosure you built and mauls someone to death, you are responsible because you didn’t live up to your obligations to keep your society safe from your dangerous weapon; if someone steals your gun, it’s possible you have been lax in your gun responsibility, and again society will suffer because of it. If you walk your pitbull without a leash and it goes on a rampage, you are responsible, right? If you leave your gun loaded and in easy reach somewhere at work or home or in the car, it seems to me you should be responsible for what happens if it is stolen. I do not find it exotic to think that quite a few gun owners would prefer less liability rather than more. That, I believe, was the thrust of **Call me frank** , though I don’t know to what extent existing laws are suitable nor how they vary from state to state. (Of course, if someone breaks in your house, chloroforms you while you sleep, proceeds to wreck your house looking for your safely locked away gun, and takes off with it, that is another story – it can be argued that you were responsible gun owner, but were simply bested by a criminal under the circumstances.) ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/98 "2004-09-09T13:03:30Z")
> [@Call Me Frank](#): > > If you steal his weapon **(because it was irresponsibly stored)** and use it for the basic purpose it was designed for, And who is the arbitrator of what is responsibly stored? I can see some liability for pulling into a 7-11, going into the store and leaving your 9mm sitting on the seat (many CCW classes address these types of scenarios). But am I liable if it sits on my coffee table? In the closet? In a safe? What may seem reasonable to you may seem big brother to others. And how do you enforce safe storage? House to house searches? Registration, so the cops know who exactly owns a firearm? SteveG1 posted this earlier (#81), and I think his post sums it up nicely. > [@SteveG1](#): > > Gun owners are already legally responsible, under the laws that deal with reckless endangerment, criminal negligence, manslaughter, discharging within city limits etc. Responsibility means just what it says. Treat it carefully, never point it at anyone, never shoot in the air because the bullet will come down somewhere, never leave it where the kids can get to it, and NEVER assume it is unloaded. ---
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/99 "2004-09-09T13:20:50Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > This rhetoric does not make his car any less deadly; That that may be considered rhetoric does not negate the accuracy of the statement you are referring to. > [@](#): > > Would you feel better if your child was killed by an instrument not designed to kill? I’m 20, so I’d prefer being child-free, at the moment 🙂 Hypothetically, I believe I would feel worse if I knew their death could have easily been prevented through the exercise of strict gun storage regulations. > [@](#): > > I agree. There should be laws to ensure safe storage of firearms. In some jurisdictions, (like where I live), there are. [Pennsylvania’s Gun Laws](http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=pa). Yeah, I know it’s from the Brady Campaign site, but my cursory search didn’t find a more objective cite and I’m not too interested in a more thorough search at the moment… **Call me Lazy** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351/100 "2004-09-09T13:31:37Z")
> [@BF](#): > > And who is the arbitrator of what is responsibly stored? I can see some liability for pulling into a 7-11, going into the store and leaving your 9mm sitting on the seat (many CCW classes address these types of scenarios). But am I liable if it sits on my coffee table? In the closet? In a safe? What may seem reasonable to you may seem big brother to others. And how do you enforce safe storage? House to house searches? Registration, so the cops know who exactly owns a firearm? What would qualify as reasonably safe storage is something of another debate. But, just for kicks and giggles, I’d say reasonable rules for unlocked, containerless storage (which would include a gun with a child safety lock) would involve the weapon being kept in an unloaded, non-fireable state. So on the coffee table and in the closet are out, but in the safe would probably be ok (would prefer it to be unloaded and non-fireable there too, but some might call that unreasonable). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-americans-provide-their-own-security/262351.md?page=6)