# Let another generation dream (space exploration) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048 "2012-01-29T02:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/41 "2012-01-30T01:23:58Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think we should just move the space program to Africa. It’s a win-win. Eh. I never understood the gnashing of teeth at the idea of China or Russia taking the lead of space exploration. As emerging nations, they still have a need for the nationalism it fosters. America always bitches that we have to spend all of the money on pharmaceutical research. You’d think we’d be thrilled that someone else is picking up some of the research bill for once. Should they happen to figure out something useful, do you really think we wouldn’t be able to reverse engineer that stuff? The hard part of research is figuring out the idea. Getting the technicals down on the space elevator or whatever would be pretty easy if we knew it could be done. Just like China has spies in our tech programs, we have spies in theirs. We could get all of the benefits, with less of the outlay. And the goal is some manifest destiny business about getting off this rock, right? If this is a huge, long, human-wide dream, why would it matter if China or India takes the lead for a bit on humanity’s quest for the stars. Why is it less good if it’s not 'Merica doesn’t lead every little step. Anything substantial is a long, long ways in the future anyway. The current geopolitical order will probably be complete irrelevant then. I say give it to China. Let them throw their money literally into space for the ego boost. ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/42 "2012-01-30T01:37:07Z")
Fugawi tribe taking the figuring out where-the-fuck-are-we off the priority list… great, so when will the starting gun go off so we can all get our heads out of the sand? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/43 "2012-01-30T01:57:38Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I quoted both of you not only because you replied to me but also because your statements fit together. Space exploration is a massive undertaking. Massive undertakings take a hell of a long time to develop. The time to get started is now. The technology and knowledge cannot be developed overnight. Also, there are probably plenty of places that can be reasonably colonized in our solar system. In terms of space priorities, I’d think unmanned exploration, engine technology, sensor technology, power generation and storage, etc. ought to come first before the manned stuff if only the public payback from related technologies from such research would likely come much quicker. But I’ll let the space scientists work out the details on that. > [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s not that we need to put our energy towards making a better life here on Earth. It’s that we already have. This is not a policy piece about how I think things should be. It’s more of an explanation to the bewildered folks who see the moratorium on manned space travel as the abandoning of a dream. It’s not the abandoning of a dream, it’s the evolution of one. Other things have captured our imagination. You make it sound like we gave up space to make Earth a better place. It’s more like we gave up space AND the rest of Earth to make ourselves more comfortable in the here and now. If I’m interpreting you right, you seem to think it’s a matter of research vs implementation, or more broadly, of science/technology versus social projects. In terms of policy priorities, that’s a false dichotomy; it’s usually more a matter of all three of those versus lower taxation, defense spending, welfare for citizens, etc. In terms of public mindshare, maybe social problems are stealing brain time away from the space program, but what the public may not realize is that they could easily have both if their governments reshuffled the other priorities that constitute more than 95% of the pie. > [@](#): > > But churning out engineers doesn’t make a country great. Having great vision makes a country great. How does one implement a vision without skilled manpower? What makes a “great” country? Do you think they got there absent help from technology? > [@](#): > > You often hear the musing “what would the government be like if it were all scientists.” Well, China’s government is mostly engineers. It’s not the worst government in the world, but it’s not an exceptionally awesome one, either. I’ve never heard this before. Do you have a cite that says China’s government is mostly engineers? And I’ve usually heard the musing as “What would the government be like if it were all philosophers?”, not scientists or engineers, implying not that our leaders would be specialized into specific fields of research or construction, but that they’d have a good understanding of a broad range of fields, enabling them to ultimately practice good citizenship and leadership to benefit all those fields. > [@](#): > > While China has made some incredible leaps, that’s not really because of science. China boomed because the government finally allowed people to run businesses. A ditch digger could have figured that one out. You’re making an awfully clean cut between science and the rest of Chinese society, one that makes little sense. China exists today in part because of its scientific and technological pursuits in the past… whether that’s development in the military or things like the development of a writing system, of paper, of agriculture, wheeled transportation, naval vessels, improved construction techniques, etc., etc. And today’s Chinese businesses? The government didn’t just flip a switch and say “You can all do business now!” (though that’s part of it); there was significant infrastructure upgrades happening concurrently with the improving business climate. They went from agriculture and poverty to modern manufacturing (in some areas) precisely because of science and technology, and to the extent that free-market economics is a science, it helped guide their policies as well. It just makes no sense to untie science and technology from the rest of their development. > [@](#): > > We are not going to find the magic piece of technology that saves everyone. Again, we can’t even implement the ones that we have. Mosquito nets, antibiotics, VIP toilets and bleach are all it’d take to save millions of lives. If we can’t get those to people, how are we going to reach them with the magic water filter? And in reality, the solutions to these problems are not with new technology, but with the same technology that keeps us from losing kids to the runs or expiring from malaria. If I moved to Africa, I’d build a house with window screens, a borehole well, and a septic system. I’d visit a Western-standard hospital when I got sick or gave birth. And I wouldn’t stand a large chance of dying from local diseases, even if I was in the sickest most disease ridden part of Africa. The problem is not biological. It’s structural. I’m not biologically less susceptible to disease, I’m structurally less susceptible. And technology can’t fix that. > > There is a generational zeitgeist. Obviously no generation is the borg. But there are broad trends. Millennials are less supportive of an assertive approach to national security than their predecessors. They are less likely to see military might as the path to peace- and a lot of space rhetoric was ultimately about military might. Younger people are more likely to report having participated in volunteer work than Baby Boomers. They are more open to immigration, a sign of their global outlook. They are hugely more likely to buy products that represent their values- such as Toms shoes or environmentally friendly products. There is a documented trend towards values-based civic engagement and a global outlook, and a trend away from nationalism. Again, what the heck does that have to do with the space program? NASA isn’t preventing world peace. Other conflicting national and international priorities are. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/44 "2012-01-30T02:03:50Z")
Again, it’s not a matter of “let’s focus on this over that.” It’s about why space no longer holds the public imagination like it did. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/45 "2012-01-30T02:07:17Z")
In all of this, the only aspect I can get on board with is that it’s not the right time for manned space exploration, at this moment in time. Otherwise, there’s been too much hubris upthread, and mostly in the OP, about “generational” movements and prioritizing of ideals. First of all, technology is far outpacing the idea of “generations”. It’s all a mixed bag of ideals, especially with the last 100 years being so well documented and accessible, it’s all to easy to cherry-pick any perspective that supports your stance. Second, exploration and pure scientific research are the foundations of applied science (read: Technology.). NASA is seen as a tentpole scientific government agency. One of the more altruistically founded, at that. To atrophy it to the point of being ineffective, or looked upon as a money-sink would be tragic; especially if the reason for doing so is little short-term payoff (which is to bang your head against the rafters of myopic thinking). Third, comparing the space program, and all that it has achieved (and the people who have died in the name if it) to the vein dreams of a girl wanting to be a princess is to totally undermine any ideal you try to put forward yourself thereafter. I mean shit, most boys I grew up with wanted to be rock stars, not firefighters or astronauts. Fourth, research and exploration is a gamble, but one that’s usually taken under by evaluating the risks and costs (sometimes with the costs weighed in human lives) against the challenges and pragmatic issues known. Benefits in technology, either profound or subtle are usually seen immediately, taken for granted now, or are much farther downriver ingrained in complicated and poorly understood ways. Without taking some risk… _some risk…_ we’ll remain a stagnant species wringing our hands and contemplating everyone else’s pierced navel. The Apollo Program achieved the one singular thing that I think most everyone takes for granted: It showed all future generations what’s possible. So, no – today, manned exploration doesn’t make much sense. But someday, it will again. Robotics and probes will fill the gap nicely before we decide to take the next literal step. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/46 "2012-01-30T02:10:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s not that we need to put our energy towards making a better life here on Earth. It’s that we already have. This is not a policy piece about how I think things should be. It’s more of an explanation to the bewildered folks who see the moratorium on manned space travel as the abandoning of a dream. It’s not the abandoning of a dream, it’s the evolution of one. Other things have captured our imagination. > > How do I know this? See Exhibit A: The decline of the manned space program in America. It’s what got us in this conversation in the first place. I must have missed some important news. When did our manned space flight program end? When was a moratorium enacted? I know that the space shuttle program was ended. I know that President Obama scuttled human mission to Mars plans, but how has “space exploration” declined at all? How has public support for it declined at all? If you were specifically discussing “manned space exploration” then why didn’t you say so? It’s uncontroversial that it’s expensive and better handled internationally. It’s called the International Space Station and the only nation’s astronauts that have not spent time on it are China’s. > [@even\_sven](#): > > There _is_ a generational zeitgeist. Obviously no generation is the borg. But there are broad trends. Millennials are [less supportive of an assertive approach to national security](http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/millennials-confident-connected-open-to-change.pdf) than their predecessors. They are less likely to see military might as the path to peace- and a lot of space rhetoric was ultimately about military might. Younger people are more likely to report having participated in volunteer work than Baby Boomers. They are more open to immigration, a sign of their global outlook. They are hugely more likely to buy products that represent their values- such as Toms shoes or environmentally friendly products. There is a documented trend towards values-based civic engagement and a global outlook, and a trend away from nationalism. Your link says nothing of the sort regarding space exploration. You’ve extrapolated into deep space from very little information. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Should they happen to figure out something useful, do you really think we wouldn’t be able to reverse engineer that stuff? The hard part of research is figuring out the idea. Getting the technicals down on the space elevator or whatever would be pretty easy if we knew it could be done. Just like China has spies in our tech programs, we have spies in theirs. We could get all of the benefits, with less of the outlay. Yeah, it’s best to act like a 3rd world nation and steal/reverse engineer your knowledge. That way, when the countries that develop technology start dictating the terms to us we can start whining like 3rd world countries always do. I’d really hate to live in one of those ignorant countries where they can’t make bleach or nets. What the hell is wrong with those people, we’ve had net technology for maybe 5000 years? Bleach? How hard is it to make bleach? How about fire for boiling water? How long have humans mastered fire for? It’s not the fault of developed nations that developing nations simply seem completely unable to utilize basic technology to solve their problems. It’s certainly not caused by the fraction we spend on technology related to space exploration. > [@even\_sven](#): > > And the goal is some manifest destiny business about getting off this rock, right? If this is a huge, long, human-wide dream, why would it matter if China or India takes the lead for a bit on humanity’s quest for the stars. Why is it less good if it’s not 'Merica doesn’t lead every little step. Anything substantial is a long, long ways in the future anyway. The current geopolitical order will probably be complete irrelevant then. > > I say give it to China. Let them throw their money literally into space for the ego boost. It is global. It has been global. It isn’t going anywhere. All your premises are baseless. Space exploration is not preventing a cure for malaria. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/47 "2012-01-30T02:17:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again, it’s not a matter of “let’s focus on this over that.” > > It’s about why space no longer holds the public imagination like it did. So you’re saying “space isn’t as high a priority to most people because of more pressing social problems”? Maybe that’s actually the case. I hope that isn’t true, but if it IS, well, since this is GD, I want to try and argue that it _shouldn’t_ be true, dammit! 🙂 If people have stopped dreaming about space to start dreaming about social solutions, they should realize that both dreams share the same political and economic roadblocks. I dream about both, and I certainly don’t want the space program aborted because people are dreaming that NASA’s somehow holding back their do-goodery. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/48 "2012-01-30T02:19:31Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again, it’s not a matter of “let’s focus on this over that.” > > It’s about why space no longer holds the public imagination like it did. Speak for yourself. I’d like to see a cite that proves that space no longer holds the imagination as it once did. It may not hold yours, but not all of us are “seasoned world travelers” who have connected with the inner souls of the poor, or whatever it is you peddle around here. And, I have the answer to the malaria problem - DDT. Science solved that one decades ago, but the environmentalists put the kibosh on that, trading off thinned shelled bird eggs for millions and millions of lives. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/49 "2012-01-30T02:27:11Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Speak for yourself. I’d like to see a cite that proves that space no longer holds the imagination as it once did. It may not hold yours, but not all of us are “seasoned world travelers” who have connected with the inner souls of the poor, or whatever it is you peddle around here. > > And, I have the answer to the malaria problem - DDT. Science solved that one decades ago, but the environmentalists put the kibosh on that, trading off thinned shelled bird eggs for millions and millions of lives. [Qi’s alarm bell] [Stephen Fry] Uuuuh, Sorry, it is a common misconception. [/SF] [http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2008/05/rehabilitatingcarson/](http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2008/05/rehabilitatingcarson/) > [@](#): > > Some mainstream journalists have accepted this story, which in turn has led to pressure on the World Health Organisation (WHO) and other bodies to change policies and personnel. Yet perhaps the most striking feature of the claim against Carson is the ease with which it can be refuted. It takes only a few minutes with Google to discover that DDT has never been banned for anti-malarial uses, and that it is in use in at least 11 countries. > > It takes only a little more time to discover that the postwar attempt to eradicate malaria by the spraying of DDT was a failure, largely because Carson’s warnings that overuse of insecticides would lead to the development of resistance in mosquito populations were ignored. Modern uses of insecticides are far closer to the methods advocated by Carson than to the practices she criticised. > > How, then, did the idea that Carson was responsible for millions of deaths gain currency? Any good myth requires a few grains of truth, and the DDT malaria story has a couple. First, the 2001 Stockholm convention on persistent organic pollutants prohibits the use of DDT except for disease control, and calls for all DDT use to be phased out. The phase-out commitment is often loosely referred to as a “ban.” > > Second, by virtue of its massive misuse in the 1960s and 1970s, DDT gained a bad reputation that was hard to shake. As a result, says WHO’s Allan Schapira, donors have sometimes insisted on the use of an insecticide other than DDT, even in “countries where the government wished to use DDT, and there was evidence that it was the best option for malaria-vector control.” [http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/11/skeptoid\_fact\_check\_part\_2.php](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/11/skeptoid_fact_check_part_2.php) > [@](#): > > Dunning’s proposed policy is, in fact, the current policy. Donors like USAID will fund DDT use and they let the experts decide where it will be used. That’s why, although it’s still used in some places, in most places other insecticides are used for IRS and the primary tool is long-lasting insecticide treated nets. These last for years, while DDT has to be resprayed every six months. > > So what went wrong with Dunning’s podcast? I think the problem was that he was insufficiently skeptical and was taken in by a PR campaign designed to put environmentalists on the defensive by falsely accusing them of killing babies. My article with John Quiggin covers some of the history of this campaign, as does Oreskes and Conway’s excellent book, Merchants of Doubt. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/50 "2012-01-30T02:42:31Z")
Here is an [example](http://si.academia.edu/RogerLaunius/Papers/376764/_Evolving_Public_Perceptions_of_Human_Spaceflight_in_American_Culture_) of the evolution of popular opinion about the space program. People generally express support for the space program, but there isn’t much more than a bit of moaning when large chunks of it are cut. Most of the political will is no longer there, and it’s not coming back. Meanwhile, while the X Prize has pretty much been a bust, the Jimmy Carter Foundation, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Global fund and millions of NGOs have made real progress. This is a new phenomena. the role of NGOs have exploded from the 1990s on. And accordingly the decade of 2000-2010 has been the best for human development. Space travel is not going to stop a cure for malaria. That is absolutely right. But the world’s leaders care about a cure for malaria a lot more than they care about space- especially manned space travel. We are still showing future generations what is possible. We are still dreaming and doing. We are still applying science and research. It’s just in a different realm. Not better, not worse, but perhaps more appropriate for our generation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/51 "2012-01-30T02:46:50Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think we should just move the space program to Africa. It’s a win-win. [Congo](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=591_1249254184) is already all over that. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/52 "2012-01-30T02:58:33Z")
Thanks **GIGO** for the data. I will do some more research, and I was using a sloppy shorthand by setting up Carson as the fall guy. But, I don’t think I need to point out the limitations of bednetting, and I do think that some of the boogeyman hype about DDT has been spread by anti-science environmentalists. Either way, thanks for the info. I am bowing out of this thread now, though, because **even sven** ’s unbelievable arrogance at speaking for “our” generation is making my head explode. This is a great debate (get it?) but her heavy-handed self-righteousness is poisoning the well. Unfortunately, such arrogance seems to be a marker for our generation as well. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/53 "2012-01-30T03:11:38Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Thanks **GIGO** for the data. I will do some more research, and I was using a sloppy shorthand by setting up Carson as the fall guy. But, I don’t think I need to point out the limitations of bednetting, and I do think that some of the boogeyman hype about DDT has been spread by anti-science environmentalists. Either way, thanks for the info. > > I am bowing out of this thread now, though, because **even sven** ’s unbelievable arrogance at speaking for “our” generation is making my head explode. This is a great debate (get it?) but her heavy-handed self-righteousness is poisoning the well. > > Unfortunately, such arrogance seems to be a marker for our generation as well. ☹ You could try adding to the thread by stating your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/54 "2012-01-30T03:24:52Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again, it’s not a matter of “let’s focus on this over that.” > > It’s about why space no longer holds the public imagination like it did. We, as smart people, ought to do something about that then? I’d think our posterity would approve of us paying a wee bit of attention to figuring out where in the hell we are. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/55 "2012-01-30T03:57:47Z")
Just out of curiosity, I wanted to look at the data another way: How has employment in relevant industries changed over the last two decades? Using the Bureau of Labor Statistics’s industry-separated employment-over-time stats (not easily linkable), I came up with [this rough graph](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak79MqTQ_P2LdFgwVDJYRlJiZm5nRC1ZV2pfVktGSVE#gid=1). The actual data is on Sheet1. It shows a ~35% decrease in space employment following the end of the Cold War, and then it’s held more or less steady. On the other hand, there’s been a steady increase in the “[Social Assistance](http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/sssd/naics/naicsrch?code=624&search=2007%20NAICS%20Search)” industry. Other “social” industries have stayed mostly the same. Thought this was interesting, not necessarily proof of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/56 "2012-01-30T04:08:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Here is an [example](http://si.academia.edu/RogerLaunius/Papers/376764/_Evolving_Public_Perceptions_of_Human_Spaceflight_in_American_Culture_) of the evolution of popular opinion about the space program. People generally express support for the space program, but there isn’t much more than a bit of moaning when large chunks of it are cut. Most of the political will is no longer there, and it’s not coming back. Maybe I’m missing something, but I skimmed the paper and looked at all the graphs. The best conclusion I could draw was “perception varied year to year, but overall it hasn’t changed a whole lot since Apollo”. I will quote the author’s own conclusions: > [@](#): > > • The American public has long held generally positive attitudes toward the > space program, but is not very familiar with its details. > Throughout the history of the space age, an average of more than 60 percent > of those polled rated the job done by NASA as either “excellent” or > “good.” > • Most Americans have shown support for space exploration and view it as > important throughout the years, but also believe that federal money could > be better spent on other programs. > • Most are also in favor of NASA as an organization, but are relatively unfamiliar > with the majority of its activities and objectives. > • These polls also suggest historically close relationships between public > perceptions of NASA and spaceflight depictions in popular culture, especially > film. These images from popular culture, coupled with real-world > accomplishments in spaceflight, work together to create powerful visions > affecting the public consciousness. How did you go from that to concluding that political will has decreased? At best it shows that following a significant funding cut to NASA following the end of Apollo, the public support hasn’t increased significantly… but neither has it decreased significantly. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/57 "2012-01-30T04:32:10Z")
(Sorry to split it up into so many, well, Replies) > [@even\_sven](#): > > Meanwhile, while the X Prize has pretty much been a bust, the Jimmy Carter Foundation, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Global fund and millions of NGOs have made real progress. This is a new phenomena. the role of NGOs have exploded from the 1990s on. And accordingly the decade of 2000-2010 has been the best for human development. Why do you think the X-Prize was a bust? We went from pretty much no private industry space travel to a passenger-capable plane in less than 10 years with $100 million spent. Commercial personal space travel is now a reality for the very rich, and development continues as we speak. As for the human development, why do you say that this most recent decade has been the best? According to the [UN Human Development Index](http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/hdi/) trends (Table 2), the last three decades have maintained 0.65 to 0.66 year-to-year percentage growth in global HDI. Certain regions (Europe, Central & South Asia, South & Sub-Saharan Africa) have seen an increased growth rate over the most recent decade, but the rate actually slowed down in other regions (Arab States, East Asia, Latin America). Perhaps more relevantly, the HDI growth rate is increasing for the least developed countries, but how did you attribute that to NGO actions instead of other developments (war, investment, technology, foreign aid, etc.)? > [@](#): > > Space travel is not going to stop a cure for malaria. That is absolutely right. But the world’s leaders care about a cure for malaria a lot more than they care about space- especially manned space travel. We are still showing future generations what is possible. We are still dreaming and doing. We are still applying science and research. It’s just in a different realm. Not better, not worse, but perhaps more appropriate for our generation. I hate to be so nitpicky, but you’re throwing out a lot of assumptions that you probably take for granted, but I for one apparently missed out on this whole thing happening. When did the world’s leader start caring more about malaria than space? Says who? As far as I can tell, neither has been a big priority following the end of the cold war, the recent Russian and Chinese push into space aside. I’d love to see data that suggests otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/58 "2012-01-30T04:34:38Z")
I love science. Richard Feynman, Neil Tyson DeGrasse and Carl Sagen are the authors of a beautiful quest for knowledge that I adore. I love stars, I love knowing the names of constellations, working to understand string theory, explaining to a small child how an eclipse works. Innovation is fascinating, and true leaps in human knowledge and experience are noble and worthwhile. However, I have 0 interest in the space race. I agree with the OP in that “our generation” has a very different idea of what success looks like and what is dreamable. For example, a colony on the moon seems too simple and too expensive to want to even attempt. We grew up thinking that we were on the edge of ecological and environmental disaster. There is no strong appeal of spreading that elsewhere until we have our own situation under control. Where I disagree with the OP is that there is a common vision among our generation of what our dreams look like. The legacy of 10 years of war, a poor economy and massive student debt has stifled a huge portion of the 25-35 year old generation. Al Queda does not provide a competitive enemy, as there was during the Cold War, and it’s hard to justify focusing innovation in areas that we could previously. ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/59 "2012-01-30T05:17:58Z")
So the sky is blue, I got my shit to do and got bills to pay…? “No strong appeal to spread elsewhere” until the day human beings do really need to… oh, so we will start thinking about it then? Okay… It doesn’t bother you that we really don’t know where we are or what this is we call reality? Doesn’t it comfort you that at least we are studying, exploring and discovering as one who doesn’t know where or what he or she is ought to be doing? . ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/60 "2012-01-30T05:21:06Z")
Actually, at **even sven** , don’t even worry about what I said. It just doesn’t really matter. This isn’t an argument about data. You don’t think space is a high priority, fine. I accept it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048.md?page=4)