# Let another generation dream (space exploration) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048 "2012-01-29T02:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/81 "2012-01-30T22:00:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You seem to imply that we should be doing more than sending folks into orbit for weeks at a time, but my question remains: what would they do and why is it worth our time and money? Human space travel has always been about two things: national prestige and adventure. The scientific aspects are a distant third. Even if we aim to colonize other planets, the technological barriers to that are better addressed with unmanned probes at this time. So, it’s about national prestige and adventure. Given the relatively small expenditure, those are two good enough reasons. We should send someone to an asteroid, Mars, wherever (already did the Moon). Spam in a can, flags and footprints. We’ll be there and others won’t or can’t be. The country needs it now more than ever. This argument is probably going to be all Greek to the OP and many others. The conventional wisdom on this board is that the US sucks, we should be ashamed of ourselves, and if we are in decline so much the better, it’s what we deserve. Arguing with that point of view is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/82 "2012-01-30T22:13:30Z")
The famous [Canadian teenagers](http://www.thestar.com/article/1121598--lego-space-man-puts-the-spotlight-on-toronto-teens) know what it’s all about. Their Lego dude is carrying a Canadian flag. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/83 "2012-01-31T02:07:34Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > So, it’s about national prestige and adventure. Given the relatively small expenditure, those are two good enough reasons. We should send someone to an asteroid, Mars, wherever (already did the Moon). Spam in a can, flags and footprints. We’ll be there and others won’t or can’t be. The country needs it now more than ever. > > This argument is probably going to be all Greek to the OP and many others. The conventional wisdom on this board is that the US sucks, we should be ashamed of ourselves, and if we are in decline so much the better, it’s what we deserve. Arguing with that point of view is a waste of time. Actually, I think it’s my OP that is Greek to you. Manned space travel is no longer about pride or national adventure. It is instead a stunt that runners up like China buy in a misguided attempt to feel like they are a part of the big boys club. The time that it was a lynchpin of national pride passed a long, long time ago. Now imagine if the US was able to eliminate global poverty. That would be something to crow about, to boost national pride! Why does it matter? Why begrudge throwing a few dollars into space? Because if we are funding pet projects, I’d rather fund mine, of course. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/84 "2012-01-31T02:18:03Z")
Well, there’s no ROI in feeding poor people. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/85 "2012-01-31T02:19:58Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, there’s no ROI in feeding poor people. Are you kidding me? Dead people make terrible consumers. I’m told that the average dead person drinks less than one can of Coke Zero per year, and produces no diamonds whatsoever from any third world mine. Stupid, lazy, dead poor people! ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/86 "2012-01-31T02:21:36Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > But supposing that space exploration pushed a lot more kids toward science and engineering? There are some technical types who have claimed that’s exactly what motivated them originally. Well, that’s exactly what we bloody need. The more level-headed math and science types we have making new stuff, the more likely it is that we’ll all be able to enjoy something fantabulous which they’ll eventually happen to make. We could potentially solve a lot of problems with energy and pollution and who knows what else if we just get enough brains working on it. > … > Other people will naturally have different impressions of the probable benefits. Is there really such a shortage of mathematicians/scientists/engineers that we need to, at great cost, speculatively subsidize their production? Ever since childhood, I’ve always heard this sort of talk about how the country sorely needs more people to go into math and science, but, as a mathematician who will soon be on the job market, it doesn’t seem as though anyone is beating down a path to my door… Granted, that’s lazy, self-centered argument on my part, but what exactly is the meaning of and evidence for the claim that we need more math and science types, and why can’t we hope for the appropriate incentives to be provided by the market wages for those careers? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/87 "2012-01-31T02:24:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Now imagine if the US was able to eliminate global poverty. That would be something to crow about, to boost national pride! > > Why does it matter? Why begrudge throwing a few dollars into space? Because if we are funding pet projects, I’d rather fund mine, of course. Why are these things mutually exclusive to you? I’m down for the abolition of poverty as much as I am for aerospace tech. I support them both from different parts of my core philosophies, but each are two entirely different animals that hardly interfere or inhibit one another. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/88 "2012-01-31T03:50:50Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Why are these things mutually exclusive to you? > > I’m down for the abolition of poverty as much as I am for aerospace tech. I support them both from different parts of my core philosophies, but each are two entirely different animals that hardly interfere or inhibit one another. When I took economics, they never taught me that it was possible to produce a maximum amount of guns and a maximum amount of butter. Perhaps the dilemma of scarcity of resources does not apply to the question of rockets versus butter? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/89 "2012-01-31T05:23:23Z")
In my earlier post **Ravenman** I was referring to your Utopian vision for planet Earth. It’s science fiction with a worse history than exploration. There’s no reason to believe that treating poverty is mutually exclusive with human space exploration. The reasons for poverty are not money alone, and expenditures on research in any field should not come at the cost of another. We can devote more of our efforts to all branches of research while truly dismantling the relics of our Cold War - military dominance strategy. There’s more than enough to go around to engage in all humanistic activities. That said, I am surprised anybody really thinks we can end all poverty. What a pipe dream. Plenty of supplies went to Somalia recently, I wonder what kept them from getting to those who needed them? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/90 "2012-01-31T06:17:07Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Eh. I never understood the gnashing of teeth at the idea of China or Russia taking the lead of space exploration. As emerging nations, they still have a need for the nationalism it fosters. America always bitches that we have to spend all of the money on pharmaceutical research. You’d think we’d be thrilled that someone else is picking up some of the research bill for once. To the contrary, my fondest hope at this time is that there are people living in China with a broader and deeper view of the future than you, so that human exploration of space isn’t abandoned entirely before we, as a species, turn entirely inward and finally die off. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/91 "2012-01-31T07:33:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you kidding me? Dead people make terrible consumers. I’m told that the average dead person drinks less than one can of Coke Zero per year, and produces no diamonds whatsoever from any third world mine. Stupid, lazy, dead poor people! Bad consumers but excellent, renewable energy sources (although poor people from the first world are admittedly better. More fat.). ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/92 "2012-01-31T08:29:41Z")
When I was a little kid my dad would take me on his hunting trips. When I followed him around I would occasionally see these rusty cans standing upright on the ground. Then I’d see my father chuckle and explain that they were pheasants sticking their head in the ground thinking they are safe as they no longer saw any danger. I was amused how uncannily they looked like some rusty soup cans. I used to love looking up at the winter sky… how deepest of deepest blue it was and the air, so so clear. . ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/93 "2012-01-31T09:02:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > When I took economics, they never taught me that it was possible to produce a maximum amount of guns and a maximum amount of butter. Perhaps the dilemma of scarcity of resources does not apply to the question of rockets versus butter? Poverty, on the global level, let alone the US, is a humanitarian clusterfuck of culture, education, politics, socio-economics, resources, and logistics. While plenty can be mitigated over time and different tactics, poverty is a _symptom,_ not the problem. It’s not some huge, clear, bright, shiny object in the sky you can throw money at to engineer a methodical plan, then plant an American flag to conquer it and be done with it. It’s not even in the same league of scientific research, space exploration, development of new technologies, etc. Both are noble aspirations, that should both receive reasonable funding, but are complete apples and oranges, despite their investment into the futures of others, immediate or not. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/94 "2012-01-31T12:32:05Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Is there really such a shortage of mathematicians/scientists/engineers that we need to, at great cost, speculatively subsidize their production? Ever since childhood, I’ve always heard this sort of talk about how the country sorely needs more people to go into math and science, but, as a mathematician who will soon be on the job market, it doesn’t seem as though anyone is beating down a path to my door… > > Granted, that’s lazy, self-centered argument on my part, but what exactly is the meaning of and evidence for the claim that we need more math and science types, and why can’t we hope for the appropriate incentives to be provided by the market wages for those careers? You make a valid point about incentives. If we’re worrying about problem X, we should spend money on problem X. Logical. But that relates directly to my other, deeper point: we’re gonna have a tough time aligning research incentives properly to deal with obvious problem X _if half our population is anti-knowledge knuckleheads_. It’s been proposed that the Spectacle of Science can have salutary effects in this regard. I’m not in a position to argue that one, but it strikes me as true. And if it did happen, then yes, there would be more demand for technical expertise of all types. There are no obvious numbers on any of this, but _if_ we saw a noticeable improvement in attitudes toward science, that could go a long way. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/95 "2012-01-31T13:06:57Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > In my earlier post **Ravenman** I was referring to your Utopian vision for planet Earth. I have no clue what post you’re referring to. I have never believed that the planet will someday turn into a bunch of shiny, happy, well-adjusted people. I think you’re constructing a straw man. What is feasible is greatly reducing the number of needless deaths due to things like preventable diseases or famine. The challenging thing here is that everyone knows how to reduce malaria or TB deaths, it’s the size of the problem that makes it difficult. But if the world can eradicate smallpox and (hopefully soon) polio, we can make lots of progress against those diseases. > [@](#): > > There’s no reason to believe that treating poverty is mutually exclusive with human space exploration. If resources are unlimited, we can do everything. Resources are not unlimited. We can do a few things really well, a greater number of things fairly well, or a bunch of things poorly. I’m saying that space exploration falls well below the priority list of a bunch of other things – national defense, Social Security, health care, schools, and foreign aid. > [@](#): > > There’s more than enough to go around to engage in all humanistic activities. That said, I am surprised anybody really thinks we can end all poverty. What a pipe dream. Again, you are the one promoting this idea, I’m not sure **even sven** has talked about a complete end to poverty. When you misrepresent other people’s positions, that’s a strawman and an illegitimate debate tactic. And the fact is that there isn’t enough money to go around for all humanistic activities: the US has pledged to spend .7 percent of GDP on development assistance programs. The amount we contribute, although in dollar terms quite substantial, is about one-quarter of the amount that we have pledged. If there are enough resources for everyone, why is our county not fulfilling its pledge? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/96 "2012-01-31T13:22:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Here is an [example](http://si.academia.edu/RogerLaunius/Papers/376764/_Evolving_Public_Perceptions_of_Human_Spaceflight_in_American_Culture_) of the evolution of popular opinion about the space program. People generally express support for the space program, but there isn’t much more than a bit of moaning when large chunks of it are cut. Most of the political will is no longer there, and it’s not coming back. It’ll come back once China or some other nation starts building space stations or colonies on the Moon, etc. like when the Russians put Sputnik in space. It is just not a very efficient way to have a space program. It is much better to have a long-term sustained program, instead of these spurts and halts. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/97 "2012-01-31T14:59:05Z")
I’m just upset that the discussion about space exploration has been framed as a major choice between NASA and altruistic endeavors. As someone else said upthread, we’re talking about fairly small amounts of monies, and I’d bet quite a bit that cutting NASA spending will neither reduce the national budget, nor re-direct much needed funds to solving world hunger. **even sven** mentioned the “dream” of manned space flight/solar exploration/lunar colonies being a fulfillment of children’s sci-fi fantasies. Well, I’d tend to agree. But, goodness gracious, aren’t dreams worth pursuing, and encouraging, and developing? Isn’t that why we fund arts and culture as well? There doesn’t need to be immediate financial or social reward for something to be worth doing (and paying for), as long as the story it gives us is inspiring, and we’re not going destitute in pursuit of those dreams. There is room for the dream of space, and the dream of peace. Deriding the former because it is subjectively less worthy than the latter is misguided thinking, particularly when there are millions of other, more wasteful, less worthy ways we spend time, money, and resources, that keep us from world peace much more directly than NASA. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/98 "2012-01-31T15:06:42Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I’m just upset that the discussion about space exploration has been framed as a major choice between NASA and altruistic endeavors. As someone else said upthread, we’re talking about fairly small amounts of monies, and I’d bet quite a bit that cutting NASA spending will neither reduce the national budget, nor re-direct much needed funds to solving world hunger. Let’s be clear about the state of affairs: NASA really isn’t funded at this point to undertake any groundbreaking human exploration. The question is whether we should substantially increase NASA’s budget to do so. So the issue of how large NASA’s budget is at this time ignores the fact that it would have to increase by quite a bit to go to the moon, Mars, or wherever; and I think that should be a low priority for new spending. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/99 "2012-01-31T15:35:24Z")
I mean, despite 30+ years of research, not a single industrial process has been developed that requires zero gravity. There was a lot of dreck written about how much better integrated circuits could be made (if the silicon crystals were grown in zero gravity). That turned out to be not true. As for the so-called “Commercialism” of space travel, people like Branson and his ilk seem to think that there is a huge market for rich people who want joyrides into space-the first fatal accident ought to take care of that. So let the Chinese blow bilions on space exploration-their return will be pretty low (in dollars and prestige). People are not buying the NASA hype anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048/100 "2012-01-31T15:59:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s be clear about the state of affairs: NASA really isn’t funded at this point to undertake any groundbreaking human exploration. The question is whether we should substantially increase NASA’s budget to do so. … Now who is constructing the strawman? I apologize for misunderstanding what you and **even sven** are arguing but it is really unclear to me just what you think you are saying. It’s becoming more clear in some of your later posts where you seem to: (1) feel there is some loss to dealing with poverty by supporting human space exploration; (2) think that there is a push to increase NASA funding for the purpose of human space exploration. #1 - If I understand it correctly, and am not building strawmen, then it needs a cite, because your logic shows no evidence that I should expect a link between the two goals such that one takes from the other. In fact, person after person has submitted the contrary view in this thread. #2 - If there is any such push it is the usual government program saying “We need more money” and whatever Gingrich said is just his attempt to get himself out of the primaries by taking the moron path of his predecessors. I’d actually be convinced of your argument if you could specify why NASA, specifically, takes from dealing with poverty in any way at all, much less a significant way. Don’t give me some general principle either. Why specifically does NASA (let’s even assume a full scale mission to Mars or a moonbase is underway) soak up funds meant to help the impoverished. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-another-generation-dream-space-exploration/611048.md?page=6)