Let give the rich their tax cut and go after the working poor.

These seem like platitudes to me. After all, if you believe in people, you can use that to note that it is through democratic government, as well as the market, that people can empower themselves.

And, really this claiming of no tradeoffs seems in practice to be used to justify policies that conveniently and unambiguously benefit the wealthy but not the poor and middle class. Of course, there are tradeoffs and winners and losers in any policy choices, at least at the margin! Hell, James Madison talked about the conflict of competing interests in some of the Federalist Papers that I read in college.

On this we agree. But, in practice, unfortunately, there is a lot of opposition to this. At work a few years ago, I was talking to a colleague about a talk I had gone to where the main point was this problem of majority poverty neighborhoods and majority poverty schools and the speaker’s conclusion was the necessity of spreading lower-income housing throughout higher income communities. This colleague, who a few minutes earlier had told me that he thought any kid who was motivated enough could get a good education no matter what the surroundings, then proceeded to deride this plan because it would mean his kids would be exposed to a few of these lower income kids at their wealthy suburban school. I was dumbfounded…I said (or at least thought), "So you mean to tell me that you think a kid growing up in a majority-poverty environment can do just fine and dandy but your own kids are so fragile that they are going to be adversely and detrimentally effected by having just a few of those kids around in their environment!?! " It was very frustrating. But, alas, people are very protective as far as their own kids are concerned.

Jshore:

Well I think the idea of the government forcibly integrating neighborhoods artificially through some kind of program is a horrifically bad idea.

I have faith in the people. An integrated neighborhood in terms of wealth is advantageous enough that people are going to figure it out and do it as they are doing now.

Forcing it just puts people together who don’t want to be together. They have to be there because they want to.

Believe it or not, I also wish this type economy existed outside the realm of fiction and wishful thinking. I would have loved to be able to work my way through college and stand on my own two feet as I went through. Some little part of me died when I had to admit that no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I did to keep myself employed(I slung fries at McDonalds when my wife and I moved away from my job in the metroplex to go to university. I wasn’t too proud to take a crappy job if it meant I could keep a roof over my family’s head and food on the table) I simply couldn’t provide adequately without food stamps, medicaid, and financial aid. Without these programs to help me sustain myself and my family while we were in school I can honestly say I can’t envision how we could have pulled ourselves out of poverty. And a family of three making 17K a year(which is what I was making full time working in a warehouse at a department store in Dallas) even with my wife working weekends at the local car dealership and without a car payment and with a reasonably-priced apartment, fully-furnished thanks to the generosity of our families, is still pretty much poverty.

I’m still having a bit of a hard time accepting your assertion that social programs only work in fiction and wishful thinking. You see, I’ve used them. I realize I may be unique, or at very least atypical, but I’m not so sure. I knew a fair number of other non-traditional students who recieved help from these types of programs and who are now productive, and fully independent, members of society. Again, we may all be statistical anomolies, but I’m just not convinced.

Enjoy,
Steven

Right next to where tax cuts stimulate the economy.

Well, last time I checked, Montgomery County was not a dictatorship. The government is the people. It is just that the people had enough good sense in this case to realize that things don’t always happen by magic in the real world and sometimes you have to have mandates (in this case, I think it was a mandate that every housing project had to include a certain small percentage of affordable housing). They knew it was a good policy overall but that NIMBYism and the lack of economic incentives to build low-income housing would combine to make it so that it didn’t just magically happen through market forces.

In my experience, new multi-family low-income housing is typically constructed on land that was already zoned multi-family, or on land in commercial districts.

In the case of the former, I think of it less as “forcible integration” and more in terms of “letting the owner of the property develop it entirely within the confines of the law.” Now, in Oklahoma, there is a requirement for new LIHTC developments to have the support of the local city government… mayor’s office, city council, whatever. I’ve seen this requirement in every other state I’ve done this work in (Kansas, Missouri and Texas) and it may be a federal requirement, I’m not sure. Usually getting this support isn’t too difficult, although there have been cases where pressure on the relevant city officials has killed a proposal. I see this as perfectly fair, considering tax credits are essentially no different (to me, at least) from plain ol’ federal dollars. But if it’s a small minority that wants to prevent a developer from using his land in a lawful manner that has the support of the city government and the rest of the community, then I have little sympathy for them.

In the case of LIHTC development in commercial districts, I don’t see what the problem is in the first place. These things are surrounded on all sides by malls, or industrial facilities, restaurants, or whatever else, and not by single-family homes. So the effect on property values of homes is not there, and they’re typically far enough that there shouldn’t be any worries (unfounded, I might add, in most cases of LIHTC development) of crime or drug use or whatever else. Rezoning is typically required, however, which means it certainly needs the approval of the city government’s planning commission. If these people (either elected or appointed) don’t think it’s in the city’s best interest, that’s perfectly fair I think.

So, there’s the question of the effect on the local school districts… quite frankly, I don’t see how anyone could in good conscience defend keeping low-income children out of public schools. And it’s certainly not as if LIHTC developments aren’t contributing to the local property tax base, as long as they’re run by groups that aren’t already exempt from property taxes (such as churches). Of course it’s possible that the developer get an x-year property tax abatement, but this is rare in my experience.

For many of the communities I’m doing this work in, though, it’s a moot point. Small, rural communities frequently beg for the opportunity to get one of these things, because it’ll be the first new development in the community in decades. For these communities, LIHTC development means nice, new multi-family housing that’s affordable for working-class folks like themselves. Many such communities will voluntarily form “task forces”, made up of local government and private business leaders, that actively seek out developers to build low-income housing in their communities, because they see it as an important tool for keeping their little town from drying up and blowing away.

Finally, I think a lot of objections to such development are based in ignorance of what LIHTC developments are. All they know are those disastrous high-rise developments in large cities like Chicago, and they either haven’t seen a tax-credit complex or didn’t recognize one when they saw it. They also don’t understand that most of these complexes are run by for-profit groups that have every economic incentive to keep their complex attractive and free of criminal elements.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mtgman *
Believe it or not, I also wish this type economy existed outside the realm of fiction and wishful thinking. I would have loved to be able to work my way through college and stand on my own two feet as I went through. Some little part of me died when I had to admit that no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I did to keep myself employed(I slung fries at McDonalds when my wife and I moved away from my job in the metroplex to go to university. I wasn’t too proud to take a crappy job if it meant I could keep a roof over my family’s head and food on the table) I simply couldn’t provide adequately without food stamps, medicaid, and financial aid. Without these programs to help me sustain myself and my family while we were in school I can honestly say I can’t envision how we could have pulled ourselves out of poverty. And a family of three making 17K a year(which is what I was making full time working in a warehouse at a department store in Dallas) even with my wife working weekends at the local car dealership and without a car payment and with a reasonably-priced apartment, fully-furnished thanks to the generosity of our families, is still pretty much poverty.[/,quote]

It sounds to me like you did do it by yourself.

And I don’t deny that these programs can and do good for some people.

My general condemnation of Social programs is obviously that; a general condemnation.

I’ve been through this with Jshore in an earlier thread where we were more specific. I support programs that promote education and I do feel that there has to be a minimum safety net so that people and their children do not die or suffer.

To flesh it out, my philosophy on these things is that they are a necessary evil that needs to be ketp to a minimum, and, we need to be careful to ensure that the programs will not exacerbate what they are supposed to alieve.

The low-income housing that I am referring to is that of the 60s and 70s, and what is known in most major cities to this day as “the projects.”

These are rows of large grey concrete apartment buildings, and it seems that their primary role is to perpetuate hopelessness and poverty.

Des:

The modern low-icome housing incentives and tax-credits they provide is something very different from what I am describing when I condemn housing projects. I am referring exclusively to the “diastrous high-rise developments” as you put it.

I think the taxpayers whose taxes went into the fund my food stamps were drawn from and whose money supported the medicaid fund which paid out multiple thousands of dollars for the prenatal care and delivery of my second daughter and my son might disagree with that characterization. I’m not saying they’d begrudge the aid, but it is just simple honesty to admit I didn’t support my family on my own during that timeframe.**

If you could provide a link to the thread I’ll look at some of the arguements and citations next week(have company this weekend). Our overall philosophy isn’t that different, but I think having personally spent time living on that “minimum safety net” I think we may disagree on how high it should be strung or some of the other factors in its construction. I certainly disagree with the assertion that it is so comfortable that a majority would find it disincentive to get up and stand on their own.

Enjoy,
Steven

Mtgman:

I wasn’t always living in mansions surrounded by Playboy Bunnies like I am now. We used to have to look up to see the safety when I was a kid, and my father was in the Marines.

Which brings us to the question of the day. If you were already living in poverty, as you described it, why would you choose to have a second child whilst on the public teat?

And a third. Don’t forget the boy was born while we were “on the teat” as well milroy. Now did you have a point or was your only goal a pathetic attempt at character assassination?

Enjoy,
Steven

Mtgman:

Let me see if I can find the point without meaning or giving offense. I met the woman who was to be my wife while still in college in '88.

We decided we wanted to get married in ‘89. Yet, we deferred, and I lived at home or shared an apartment with 4 other guys until 1992. I worked, and my fiancee worked. We would drive to meet each other on weekends, and stay at her aunts’ house. I drove a '73 Buck. Finally we had saved enough money that we could get married, by a house, and establish ourselves as a family.

Now here’s what I see as the rub, and I thought about it during that time when I got up at 5:00 a.m. to commute into NY, and got home after 8:00 pm.

I was acting responsibly and working hard to ensure my future. So was my wife to be. It was hard and we almost didn’t make it, those years apart. For the last two years I was making good money, and as a single guy working in NY, I was paying big taxes. Add it up, and it probably amounts to an extra year of my life that I worked apart from the woman I love, an extra year before we could have our dream.

You obviously made choices in your life as well to end up as you did, and to end up where you are now. So did I. Since you brought your situation up for consideration, I think it’s fair for me to comment on it.

You started a family and had kids before you could handle it. I waited until I could. If we were the same age then it would be fair to say that my decision supported yours. Yet, what is the difference between us other than the choices we made.

Why should I have had to support your choice?

You say you couldn’t have made it without social aid, but you did some remarkable things. I don’t know your specifics, but it seems to me that having two kids before you can support them is not a great decision for you or the kids. You also decided to stay in school and further your education while you had children to support, and from what you describe that didn’t help your financial situation either.

What I’m trying to say is that even with two kids, you still had choices. You could have stopped school and worked for Roadway loading trucks for $12/hr. from 9pm until 5am. You could have gone to school later in life. There were lots of things you could have done.

The Social programs you cite that helped you were just one avenue, not the only path you could have taken. I would take a wild guess that part of the reason you took the path you did, was because it was available.

The effect that I’m driving at is that you were helped out for your choices that left you in need, while I was penalized for my choices that did not. We both seem to be able-bodied people of intelligence.

Let me ask you: Why did you get to start your family early and be with the ones you love at the expense of me doing so?

Isn’t that what it amounts to?

My only point is that you pathetically took advantage of the rest of us to serve your own, apparently uncontralable, need to rut.

I am a mother today, a mother who can provide well for her child and family because I relied on a social program. When I was in college, my and my husband’s meager minimum wage earnings stopped stretching enough to allow us to eat. I was in my last year. We chose to go on food stamps. I was able to graduate, magna cum laude, and get a decent job. If I had dropped out to take another job, the debt from the broken scholarship and grant agreements would have left me no choice but bankruptcy. I would also have lost the jobs I held.

Now as a taxpayer, I am glad there are social welfare programs. I would like to see them reconfigured to give those on them a better chance at real advancement, like allowing the job training to be working for a 4 year degree rather than some training that takes less than 6 months to complete.

A good friend of mine divorced her husband and moved out with two children to go onto welfare. He beat her. She moved out when he beat her children as well. She was lucky. There was a new social program that paid for child care for those on welfare with children that were making good progress toward a degree. The recipient had to arrange to find child care in the price range, find a degree program that they could afford, as the project did not include scholarships, and also keep better than a 3.0 GPA. She was able to graduate with an associates degree in 2 years and find a job earning enough to support herself, her children, and most importantly included health care. Although the trial run of Project Chance was an overwhelming success in terms of permanently removing people from the welfare rolls and into taypayer status, it was cancelled.

It behooves society not to allow members to fail with no recourse. Not everyone has their own social net to rely on. Not everyone will always make wise decsisions. Assisting members of a society back into a real productive role should be the goal of social programs. Choosing to punish forever anyone that make a decision that results in poverty is stupid and costs far more than helping them back into society. There are also those that no matter what decision they make, they will be in poverty unless extraordinary assistance is provided. Why we have whittled programs down so far that they no longer provide any real chance of recovery for most participants is beyond me.

I assume milroyj, that you reserve similar anger for those who drive around, particularly alone, in very fuel-inefficient vehicles (as just one example), the costs of which are being subsidized by the rest of us? The one important difference is that these are often people who don’t have any demonstrated need for such subsidization.

In society, costs are transferred from person to person all the time. At least through welfare and other safety net programs, it is done honestly and with an attempt to make it need-based.

I’m not sure how “honest” it is to have two additional children while already on welfare. If a family cannot afford to feed themselves, why bring two more innocent children into the situation? It defies common sense, is all I’m saying.

You’ve said this before, but you’ve never ever come close to supporting this fallacy.

Gasoline is taxed not subsidized unless you’re a farmer, and in terms of “need,” anything more than minimum shelter and clothes for the climate and three squares does not meet your definition of need.

Provided you can pay for them, anything over that is a luxury, and nobody else’s business.

Do you have a TV, a home computer? a stereo? More than two sets of clothes?

Do you have a demonstrated need for the air conditioner in your house, or could you get along with it?

Have you flown on vacation?

You are practicing a brand of consumer fascism where your personal value system determines what others do and don’t deserve to have with their own money.

**

I agree. Are social programs should be like boot camp, focussed unpleasant and effective.

Excuse me, but nobody’s punishing anybody. Let’s can the hyperbole if we can.