# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 119
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2369 "2021-09-11T16:08:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You were claiming kids do less well on the SAT because they don’t have time to read. But your classmates chose to get jobs, for extra money. That’s pretty different to what I though you meant, that lots of kids _have_ to work, for significant hours that actually interfere with their schooling. I really can’t get a handle on which you are referring to, or how common each scenario is. Reading comprehension is a useful tool: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > In my **upper-middle-class school** , my classmates flipped burgers, and sold clothing, and worked (summers) for landscapers, and bagged groceries. Context is key. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2370 "2021-09-11T16:10:30Z")
Yes. Kids do less well in the SATs because they have less time to read. In my wealthy suburb that was mostly because they choose to work. Poorer kids often don’t have the choice. On average, poorer kids have a lot less time to read than wealthier wealthier kids. This is one of the reasons the SATs reinforce existing status. The world isn’t black and white. Lots of little things add up. And I’m very surprised that someone who thinks Harvard shouldn’t give preference to legacy kids because they already have advantages appears to favor the SATs which greatly reinforce existing advantages, in a much more systemic way than legacy admissions, which don’t affect many kids one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2371 "2021-09-11T16:24:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And I’m very surprised that someone who thinks Harvard shouldn’t give preference to legacy kids because they already have advantages appears to favor the SATs which greatly reinforce existing advantages I did say that I was only arguing the SATs measure something relevant, not that they are the best admissions method. I don’t have a firm opinion on the latter question, but you haven’t shown any evidence that they reinforce existing advantages more than the alternatives, and I _have_ seen people say the SAT helped them to get ahead after growing up poor. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2372 "2021-09-11T16:32:07Z")
I have shown you the mechanism through which SATs reinforce existing hierarchies. That’s not to say they don’t also reflect intelligence. Nor that they haven’t helped jiggle the hierarchies in places. SATs have helped Jews and Chinese, who were very low status but had a cultural tradition that helped them excel at standardized tests, to get ahead in the US. But they unquestionably reinforce existing advantages to a huge extent. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2373 "2021-09-11T17:24:09Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Yep. I love her latest tack of pontificating about the virtues of the SAT… having never taken the SAT or, it would seem, ever been in a position where she would have cause to seriously ponder the impact or efficacy of the SAT. She’s a Google researcher who can find an article or two and suddenly has expertise and nuanced opinions on any topic. And is completely blind to how little she knows and how shallow her understanding is. FWIW there is whole body of research showing that SATs and GREs are not only not predictive of academic success they are potent barriers of college access for disadvantaged students. We spent months deciding on entrance requirements for grad programs I oversee to ensure we remove barriers and only include requirements that have data to support their predictive value. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2374 "2021-09-11T18:22:35Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > FWIW there is whole body of research showing that SATs and GREs are not only not predictive of academic success they are potent barriers of college access for disadvantaged students. Show me it, then. I keep asking for evidence and all I get is anecdotes and assertions. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I have shown you the mechanism through which SATs reinforce existing hierarchies. You have given me a plausible narrative. But that’s all it is. You haven’t given any evidence of the size of the effect, or whether other methods of selection are better or worse. I need time to find the evidence I was looking at before, but I don’t have any today. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2375 "2021-09-11T18:25:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I had a close friend in high school. When we were freshmen, he also loved to read. Then his parents went through a messy divorce and he has to get a job at a grocery store, then pick up more and more hours. Senior year, he was living on his own. I forgot to say, it’s a shame about your friend. Sounds like there must have been serious problems at home if he ended up living alone like that. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2376 "2021-09-11T18:30:38Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Richest country in the world… Are there no child labour laws? Richest country in the world has massive income inequality and a shitload of poor people. How did you manage to do all this reading and not find that out? Yes, there are child labor laws. They allow for starting paid work of some types, during some hours, as early as 12 in some cases and for work of most types by 16. And they don’t apply to anyone doing work in their own home – the children of parents who have to work multiple jobs and/or long hours to make ends meet, but who still can’t afford to hire child/elder care and housekeeping, very often have to do much of the work that gets done around the house and to care for any younger siblings and/or care-needing elderly, starting at whatever age they can begin to manage it. Children also usually start work on their parents’ farms as soon as they can begin to manage it, and may be doing so even if their parents don’t own the farm (or small business) even if that’s not legal. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’ll add that I had a somewhat different impression of standardized testing I took my first standardized test at 12, when applying for boarding school; one of the standard IQ tests. Afterwards, they took me aside, went over all the questions I got wrong, and explained not only what the right answer was, but also why my answers were wrong and what sort of answer the test was looking for. I got very good at taking standardized tests, including very good at giving the desired answer even when I thought it was the wrong one. And I have had very little faith in the results of those tests ever since. > [@DemonTree](#): > > We see so many movies and TV series from America, it feels like I know the place. It’s important to be able to tell when one is reading/watching fiction. And, for that matter, when one is reading/watching facts, but they’re selective facts. That one is somewhat trickier, because the fiction, at least in the case of movies and non-news TV shows, is usually labelled as such. > [@Babale](#): > > And as I mentioned the stats undercount certain sorts of “employment”. Including doing necessary work at home, which I mentioned above. This is rarely counted in official figures no matter who does it; although it’s a very great deal of the work in the world. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2377 "2021-09-11T19:00:39Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Show me it, then. I keep asking for evidence and all I get is anecdotes and assertions. Show “it”? An entire scholarly body of knowledge? Do this. Don’t Google. Go to Google Scholar and look for research articles. Expect conflicting reports- that’s normal and a feature of science. Look at trends of the research over time. Expect narrow research questions, not broad answers. This why it takes scholarly expertise to put it all together, what you call anecdotes and assertions. We’re not here to write you a scoping review article just to prove that those of us with expertise have that expertise. Here’s a couple to get you started. FWIW we eliminated the GRE and focused on college overall GPA and science GPA for our clinical programs as they are predictive for academic success. We also used a holistic interview process rather than rely on GPA, scores, and essays. It’s somewhat insulting that your starting point is to disbelieve people in the field and demand we counter your superficial understanding. A bit of humility, start with the premise that maybe an expert knows something you don’t, and ask for actual help in understanding would go a long way. 20 years in the field and my comments are mere anecdotes. SMH. > **[ERIC - EJ962512 - Gender Inequities in University Admission due to the...](https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ962512)** > > Males have significantly higher average scores than females on the SAT I quantitative section, which is designed to predict first-year college success in mathematics. However, it has been shown that gender gaps in performance on the SAT I have little... > **[ERIC - ED580807 - Norm-Referenced Tests and Race-Blind Admissions: The Case...](https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED580807)** > > Of all college admission criteria, scores on nationally normed tests like the SAT and ACT are most affected by the socioeconomic background of the student. The effect of socioeconomic background on test scores has grown substantially at University of... ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2378 "2021-09-11T20:15:09Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Richest country in the world has massive income inequality and a shitload of poor people. How did you manage to do all this reading and not find that out? The poverty threshold in the United States in 2019 was $13,011 for an individual and $26,000 for a family of four, before any government benefits. The average global income is just below $10,000, and the average global salary is just below $18,000. ‘Poverty’ in the US is not the same as poverty elsewhere. The international poverty line is currently $1.90 per day. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2379 "2021-09-11T20:25:11Z")
Le sigh… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2380 "2021-09-11T20:32:28Z")
Of course there are child labor laws. However, laws don’t prevent activity. They just disincentivize it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2381 "2021-09-11T20:41:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The poverty threshold in the United States in 2019 was $13,011 for an individual and $26,000 for a family of four, before any government benefits. The average global income is just below $10,000, and the average global salary is just below $18,000. > > ‘Poverty’ in the US is not the same as poverty elsewhere. The international poverty line is currently $1.90 per day. You really can’t compare income from country to country like that, unless you are trying to determine how many people can afford a laptop, or some other international good. Most goods and services, including food, housing, medical care, clothing, furniture, etc. vary a great deal in cost from country to country, and yes, they usually cost more in “richer” countries. Years ago I had an Indian friend, and I ask him what the exchange rate was between the US dollar and the Indian Rupee. He said it was about 1-100, but you should think of it as 1-1, because most of the stuff you might want to buy (a meal, a wrist watch, a month of rent) would cost about the same number of rupees where he lived in India as dollars in Princeton, NJ, where we lived at the time. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2382 "2021-09-11T20:52:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You really can’t compare income from country to country like that {…} You certainly can . . . when your goal is to minimize poverty that you really don’t to do anything about. ‘See, the international poverty line is currently $1.90 per day that means even $5 an hour makes you one of the richest people on the planet! So stop fucking complaining about how hard your life is.’ ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2383 "2021-09-11T21:08:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You really can’t compare income from country to country like that, unless you are trying to determine how many people can afford a laptop, or some other international good. Most goods and services, including food, housing, medical care, clothing, furniture, etc. vary a great deal in cost from country to country, and yes, they usually cost more in “richer” countries. What would you use instead? I’ve looked at the quality of life measures and cost of living. Here’s the [purchasing power index](https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2020&displayColumn=1) for 2020 by country. > [@](#): > > **Local Purchasing Power** shows relative purchasing power in buying goods and services in a given city for the average net salary in that city. If domestic purchasing power is 40, this means that the inhabitants of that city with an average salary can afford to buy on an average 60% less goods and services than New York City residents with an average salary. The US is 3. India is 41. Your friend from India has less purchasing power based on this chart. [Quality of life charts](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country) have the US further down because of lack of universal health care, etc. but it’s still not on the level with India. US is 15, India is 59. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2384 "2021-09-11T21:10:58Z")
So, stop complaining? > [@What is Critical Race Theory?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/265): > > Oh well, another “Susanita” argument. [Changed from a post I made before about the pitiful way the Trump admin responded to the Corona Virus:] A long time ago I pointed to that kind of argument that looks at the worst in others to minimize the gross and bad things happening in the USA as a “Susanita argument” One very famous Latin American cartoonist, Quino (RIP this year cry), had a comic strip called Mafalda. Where Susanita (a very rich and conservative girl) told Mafalda that she always… Where Susanita (a very rich and conservative girl) told Mafalda that she always looked at news and reports about what the very bad people were doing to others in other places in the world. So she felt glad and good living in Argentina (While the dirty war was going on, but that is another history). The point Mafalda made (actually what the great cartoonist Quino say) was: **“That is not good Susanita, you have to compare to others that are better than you, not with the ones that are worse so one can become a better person”** (I’m paraphrasing there), and then Susanita said to Mafalda: “C’mon! who would do such a dirty move to oneself!” And the moral of the strip was very clear, Susanita was the one with the dumb point, it is not good to look at the worst nations and come with your country’s shortcomings as mostly inconsequential by that comparison. We should be looking at what are the best efforts of other nations. To consider ideas like ending the war on drugs that would solve or minimize a lot of violence or incarcerations in the US; of course, many conservatives think that looking at better efforts or solutions in other countries is a _nasty_ thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2385 "2021-09-11T21:19:37Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > What would you use instead? It depends on my purpose. Am i comparing how many people can buy laptops? Am i estimating how many people go to bed hungry? Am i questioning whether teenagers work after school? I’d look at different metrics depending on the question at hand. And i might look at [Gini coefficients](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient), or [Lorenz curves](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_curve) not just means and medians, too. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2386 "2021-09-11T21:25:29Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Richest country in the world has massive income inequality and a shitload of poor people. How did you manage to do all this reading and not find that out? Of course I know that! But I still think it’s pretty shocking. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I took my first standardized test at 12, when applying for boarding school; one of the standard IQ tests. Afterwards, they took me aside, went over all the questions I got wrong, and explained not only what the right answer was, but also why my answers were wrong and what sort of answer the test was looking for. > > I got very good at taking standardized tests, including very good at giving the desired answer even when I thought it was the wrong one. And I have had very little faith in the results of those tests ever since. So did you increase your score on the IQ tests by doing this practice? How much by? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Including doing necessary work at home, which I mentioned above. This is rarely counted in official figures no matter who does it; although it’s a very great deal of the work in the world. I’ve been doing it most of the day. ☹ Now that I’ve finally got the baby to sleep, should I look at the papers @IvoryTowerDenizen linked, or go and clean up the kitchen? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2387 "2021-09-11T21:29:47Z")
When school was in session, I worked 10 or so hours a week on the weekends, for my personal spending and gas money. My pay was not needed to support the household. If it were, then I would have been working a whole lot more, with much less time to read and study. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2388 "2021-09-11T21:30:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It depends on my purpose. The purpose is determining this statement. I will grant outright the massive inequality. The question is about the shitload of poor people. How is poor determined? Yes, I’ve seen those other measures to determine inequality. But how does that measure how the poor are doing? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Richest country in the world has massive income inequality and a shitload of poor people. How did you manage to do all this reading and not find that out? So how would you determine that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=118) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=120)