# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 139
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2771 "2021-11-03T16:26:12Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m really interested in what happened the week of September 6th, 2020… A White House OMB memo > **[M-20-34.pdf](https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M-20-34.pdf)** > > 2.85 MB ETA: ninja’d by **Jimmy\_Chitwood**. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2772 "2021-11-03T16:26:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > the battle is real Democrats/progressives are allowed to disagree with one another on matters of ideology and policy. That doesn’t mean that what they’re “battling” over is anywhere near as delusional or counterfactual as Republican propaganda about “stolen elections” or “Great Replacement” or “Deep State” or “Marxism” or “vaxx tyranny”. Seriously, dude, clean your own house first. There is far more “gaslighting and propaganda” to be dealt with among deluded conservatives in their own media bubble these days than there is among liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2773 "2021-11-03T16:29:07Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You don’t have to change curriculum to denounce CRT. So you want us to say “we are against CRT” but then continue teaching that slavery existed? But then Republicans will just claim we are lying about denouncing CRT because there we go teaching about slavery again! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2774 "2021-11-03T16:29:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Your post just confirms why Democrats lose elections, little more. Yes, I understand why you would prefer to think that. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You don’t have to change curriculum to denounce CRT. You don’t have to have any reason to denounce CRT. You can just make one up. As indeed many have, including several notable examples in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2775 "2021-11-03T16:30:48Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What is the alternative to teaching students the “truth about systemic racism”? Repression and propaganda? Do you really expect an educational system teaching history to ignore racism in US history? Do you think you can separate the history of slavery for instance, from racism? > > Anyway American history does not = CRT. I’m not arguing against teaching historical facts, including those about slavery. I’m not even arguing that CRT should be excluded from curriculum entirely. I think it has a place in education. But you didn’t ask about that. You said: > [@drad\_dog](#): > > It isn’t part of public school curricula. So it is lying propaganda to say it is. I showed you evidence that you are wrong and it’s actually being endorsed by one of the biggest teachers unions in America. The messaging by Democrats and progressives is wrong and you are also wrong. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2776 "2021-11-03T16:31:39Z")
What the progressives promote is not only as deluded as the nuts in QAnon but actually more dangerous because at the most superficial level progressives sound somewhat appealing what with talk of free this and free that. However, the problem is that tribal identity politics mixed in with an unhealthy heap of illiberal philosophy is dangerous to the foundations of Western society. There is no greater danger to the West than undermining concepts such as freedom of speech, freedom of thought, merit, individualism etc. Yet that is precisely what the far left is engaged in. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2777 "2021-11-03T16:33:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > To everyone insisting that Republicans repeatedly come out to vote against made up issues that don’t exists, I have a question… Why don’t Democrats come out to vote for real issues that do exist? Extreme anger is a powerful motivator. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2778 "2021-11-03T16:34:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > Your post just confirms why Democrats lose elections, little more. > > Yes, I understand why you would prefer to think that. > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > You don’t have to change curriculum to denounce CRT. > > You don’t have to have any reason to denounce CRT. You can just make one up. As indeed many have, including several notable examples in this thread. Now lecture me about how Dukakis doesn’t have to worry about Willie Horton because “he didn’t personal approve his furlough, the furlough program was started by Dukakis’ predecessor, and we shouldn’t judge a criminal justice program based on one extreme event.” Like I said, you want to play in little fairy tale land. Democrats used to understand politics is a street fight. It’s fun for you guys to dog pile conservatives, say how stupid they are, and you’ll have so many people agreeing with you, that it reinforces how good it feels. Say all their arguments are stupid. Only stupid people listen to them, so we have no reason to care. Do you know why the U.S. doesn’t have universal healthcare? Why it will soon have Roe v Wade overturned? Why we have partisan gerrymandering? Why we have the most wealth inequality of any major economy? It’s because of you and people like you. You simply refuse to admit the other side has a say in setting the field of battle, and refusing to fight that cedes territory, it’s simple fact. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2779 "2021-11-03T16:35:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Extreme anger is a powerful motivator. We just had 4 years of Trump and all that entailed. Democrats should be extremely angry right now. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2780 "2021-11-03T16:35:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > CRT is a political issue that should be primarily understood in that context. It’s an assertion that white people are being discriminated against by the school system. Huh? You think that’s what Republicans mean by “CRT” when they protest against “CRT being taught in schools”? I think there must be some misunderstanding somewhere. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Like you know that gathering @RickJay alluded to where a group of crazy Q people thought JFK Jr (who was secretly still alive) was going to come out of hiding to anoint Trump? That isn’t even the craziest part–they also believe JFK **Sr** was going to “come back from the dead”, live on earth for 7 days, and at the culmination, empower Trump with the “power” JFK had, making him one of the “7 Kings” (possibly, but not certainly, in Q’s words, the “King of Kings.”) > > Yeah let me spend time and serious energy fighting against that…instead of just recognizing that mentally ill people doing mentally ill things isn’t something I can argue them out of. But you expect Democratic politicians to be able to “argue them out of” such ideas by following your advice? Dude, these deluded folks are the ones energizing Republican campaigns, even those of nominally “kinder, gentler” Trump-suckers like Youngkin. If you can’t reason with them, why do you think Democrats can? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I can assure you–you can want things to be a certain way all you want, but that just will never happen. Politics is dirty and means fighting dirty fights. You don’t really seem to have a clue as to what kind of “fights”, dirty or otherwise, would actually succeed in overcoming Republican delusionism. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2781 "2021-11-03T16:36:24Z")
You’re quite right about the problem. It’s your suggested solution that is utter nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2782 "2021-11-03T16:36:52Z")
Nope, I never said “argue out of”, you don’t argue out of anything. What I said is Republicans highlighted an issue, that if you accept on its premise, is not good politics for Democrats. When you can easily simply say “I actually oppose that”, you should do so. There is zero point zero difference between CRT and “Defund the Police”, both should be handled the same way. I’m going to guess you think Biden should have come out in **support** of Defund the Police? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2783 "2021-11-03T16:39:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Do you know why the U.S. doesn’t have universal healthcare? Why it will soon have Roe v Wade overturned? Why we have partisan gerrymandering? Why we have the most wealth inequality of any major economy? It’s because of you and people like you. Actually, it’s because of delusional and deeply misinformed Republicans and the cynical oligarchy-promoters who are strongly committed to continuing to delude and misinform them for the sake of their own further enrichment and empowerment. Again, all your anger is coming back down to “Why is your side not stopping my (former) side from doing such shitty and malevolent things?” Stop treating this situation as though the people doing the shitty and malevolent things, and the credulous ideologues letting themselves be suckered into all the shittiness and malevolence, are not the ones really responsible for it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2784 "2021-11-03T16:39:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Critical Race Theory exists. The CRT strawman that Republicans keep talking about, doesn’t really. Yeah, agreed. But that just makes it identical to every other contentious issue. I agree with Martin’s contention that this is a good illustration of why Democrats generally blow at winning elections. They’re obviously more right on the issue than they are wrong, to the extent that it’s a zero-sum game. But they don’t actually have a position that they are willing to articulate, from what I can tell. Set aside that it is a fact that they aren’t teaching the actual critical theory, as theory, to little kids. With that understood, _is it,_ in fact, a good or an OK thing to tell elementary school kids that racial identity always matters? Is it a good or an OK thing to tell elementary school kids that Whiteness means you have a dominance mindset, and will always perceive interactions from the perspective of racial supremacy? It’s not that I don’t think there are reasonable answers to these questions, obviously. It’s that when I imagine a hypothetical voter capable of being swayed by rhetoric about critical race theory, it seems obvious to me that Democrats are going to seem mealy-mouthed and dishonest and very unwilling to commit to what those answers are. Republicans will just be like “fuck it all, none of that is allowed.” Which is at least an answer. And people who are non-ideological in their everyday lives will want to hear an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2785 "2021-11-03T16:41:32Z")
Right, there’s a “genuine” debate about CRT, that people can have (I’m not particularly interested in it FWIW.) But the politics of CRT have virtually nothing to do with that debate. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2786 "2021-11-03T16:42:25Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Nope, I never said “argue out of”, you don’t argue out of anything. What I said is Republicans highlighted an issue, that if you accept on its premise, is not good politics for Democrats. When you can easily simply say “I actually oppose that”, you should do so. Already addressed above: > [@Gyrate](#): > > The main answer is that they would be playing constant catch-up to the Republicans’ smear campaigns. For every Gish Gallop they refute, the Republicans can release twenty more and in the mean time the Democrats would also be repeating the smears. Like the story about LBJ and his opponent, in fighting a smear one ends up repeating it. > > The other reason is that only the second part of “CRT should not be taught in schools, it is not taught in schools, and we won’t allow it to be taught in schools” is actually relevant. Saying that “CRT should not be taught in schools and we won’t allow it to be taught in schools” would be conceding that the “far-right lunatics” of the “conservative fringe” were right to say that CRT is somehow a bad thing and a threat to children. Why would they do that? > > The truth - that CRT is not actually taught in schools - already renders the rest of it irrelevant, and trying to convince people who have already accepted the GOP version of reality that it’s not a threat would simply entrench those people further. What you’re proposing here is not a stronger opposition, it’s capitulation. You’re saying “If only the Democrats had conceded the field to the Republicans, the Democrats might have won”, as if that makes any sense. You’re asking the Democrats to concede that the Republicans are right about the threat of CRT. Why do you somehow think this would entice people to vote for them? The people who already believe CRT is a threat would still vote Republican, and the Democratic base would feel betrayed and less likely to vote. Which voters do you expect to be attracted to the Democrats by this tactic? > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s not that I don’t think there are reasonable answers to these questions, obviously. It’s that when I imagine a hypothetical voter capable of being swayed by rhetoric about critical race theory, it seems obvious to me that Democrats are going to seem mealy-mouthed and dishonest and very unwilling to commit to what those answers are. Republicans will just be like “fuck it all, none of that is allowed.” Which is at least an answer. And people who are non-ideological in their everyday lives will want to hear an answer. Say what you like about National Socialism… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2787 "2021-11-03T16:42:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There is zero point zero difference between CRT and “Defund the Police” Again, what do you mean by “CRT”? You said just now that it was “an assertion that white people are being discriminated against by the school system”. That doesn’t make sense to me. Do you mean that conservative opposition to what they call “CRT” is essentially an assertion that white people are being discriminated against by the school system? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2788 "2021-11-03T16:43:14Z")
CRT is not being taught. It’s the actual factual history. CRT is the academic study of how race is taught in society. If you want to censor it you are not being an honest advocate of your position. You are basically a book burner. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2789 "2021-11-03T16:43:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > There is zero point zero difference between CRT and “Defund the Police” > > Again, what do you mean by “CRT”? You said just now that it was “an assertion that white people are being discriminated against by the school system”. That doesn’t make sense to me. > > Do you mean that conservative opposition to what they call “CRT” is essentially an assertion that white people are being discriminated against by the school system? I’m not going to answer what I mean by CRT because it’s not germane (also I already sufficiently explained what I meant, you’re simply needling for a big debate about CRT which I have no interest in, and has nothing to do with politics.) The fact you are asking that question, means you don’t “get” that it’s a political issue. It’s not something to argue about in a detailed way. I’ll treat you as non-responsive if you don’t answer this though: **Do you think Biden was correct to denounce “Defund the Police”? Yes or no.** ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/2790 "2021-11-03T16:47:46Z")
Right, because there are too many people like yourself that will believe the Republican lies over the actual reality. When the Republicans accuse a Democrat of fucking a pig, you want the Democrats to not only deny fucking a pig, but to deny the existence of pigs altogether. Otherwise, that’s why they lose elections. But you are right, lies are more believable than the truth, and _that_ is why Republicans win. Democrats could start lying too, and possibly do better in elections due to it, but then we have two parties that have no connection to reality, and that’s not all that great for our country either. As long as people like you blame Democrats for Republican lies, that’s why Democrats lose elections. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=138) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=140)