# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/421 "2021-07-30T16:23:22Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Firstly, may I ask did you also oppose the Trump tax cuts? $2.3 trillion is a big chunk of change, and this is supposed to be a list of things where Democrats’ policies are worse. Yes. I was on the record opposing both his spending and tax cuts. I have always been consistent on the need for fiscal restraint. > [@Mijin](#): > > Secondly, of course a case could be made that the _reason_ that the economy has survived covid so well is because of this stimulus. Are you talking about the 1.9 trillion Covid bill that’s already done? I’m not. The Democrats want an additional 2 trillion ‘infrastructure’ bill, followed by _another_ 3.5 trillion in spending on new benefits and entitlements they want to jam through in reconciliation. That’s a total of 7.4 trillion dollars in spending bills in one year. It dwarfs what Trump did. > [@Mijin](#): > > Finally, in your next paragraphs you go on to say how much GDP growth there is and that the economy is potentially overheating. Well, perhaps wages should finally increase to come towards the increases in productivity we’ve seen over past decades? IMO a lot of this employment crisis is a market failure; that employers feel a menial job is only “worth” $X, and are very reluctant to pay $X’ We aren’t going to know that for some time, and I suspect it’s wrong. The early data from Republican states that ended the extra subsidy is that it sent workers over 25 back to work, but not workers under 25. But that makes sense. People still living at home can afford to stay away from the job, but people living on their own have rent to pay. And since they’ve been locked down but getting more than average pay, they have some money and don’t need to work. That won’t last. > [@Mijin](#): > > If the new reality becomes an adequate social safety net, such that employers need to pay a living wage, then good. Those businesses that _won’t_ pay that, fuck em. Those that _can’t_ pay it, were unlikely to survive very long; if a few dollars difference in wages would pull you under then it was just a matter of time anyway. And if maintaining this situation with government benefits drives inflation up, their real wages will go down, and every time you increase their pay with printed money you make the problem worse. Inflation is a real bitch once it gets out of control. Young people who didn’t live through the 70’s have no idea. But they’re likely going to learn soon. The problem is on both parties, as it doesn’t seem like there is anyone left in Washington who cares about spending any more. But the Democrats are taking it to a whole new level. > [@Mijin](#): > > Firstly, is a nationwide network really on the cards? > But secondly, and more importantly, where did you get the idea that trains have a higher carbon footprint than cars? [Most research](https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint) I’ve seen emphatically says the opposite. It depends on which day you ask. Biden wants to expand Amtrack across the country, but his administration has also made noises about high speed rail. You should read the train thread in great debates. Passenger trains are currently more efficient than the extant auto fleet. They aren’t nearly as efficient as an auto fleet made up of electric cars, And the efficiency of trains highly depends on the capacity factor. Trains that run half empty have ten times the BTU per passenger mile than a Tesla with one person in it. A Tesla model 3 uses 271 BTU per mile. That’s pretty typical for electric cars. The best trains that run fully loaded all the time might get 600 BTU/passenger mile, and the worst tains can be over 3000, more than ten times worse than a Tesla with one passenger or forty times worse than one with four people in it. Amtrack averages around 1200 BTU per passenger mile, which makes it about five times worse than an electric car. The trains will take decades to finish. By then, taking a train instead of an electric car or electric bus would be a net loss for the planet. And by then all our cars are supposed to be electric. But while they are constructed, they will consume the most energy intensive materials around - steel and concrete - in massive quantities. Concrete is a major emitter of greenhouse gases, and is also in short supply. Building out a train system now will make global warming worse for 20 years, and then \*maybe start paying back a small amount of the CO2 emitted during construction if the electric car thing falls through. But if we get the electric car future the Democrats are promising, the trains will be net energy sinks and CO2 emitters even after they are done. You would help save the planet by driving your electric car instead of riding a train with a big diesel electric locomotive up front. To build this with printed money while resources are in short supply and inflation is growing is just crazy bad economucs and global warming policy. > [@Mijin](#): > > Much of the opposition to this project is just based on fears of Russia increasing its influence and bypassing Ukraine. In terms of CO2, we cannot overnight have zero requirement on fossil fuels and this is a relatively small part of the overall European energy mix. Funny how those arguments didn’t work for Keystone XL or the critical pipelines Democrats are still trying to shut down in North America. I always thought the point to shutting down pipelines was to choke off fossil fuels and make them more expensive to speed the transition to renewables. But when Democrats kill pipelines at home but approve them for authoritarian countries overseas, it looks incoherent. Or to crazy Republicans, like they are actually trying to sabotage their own country and transfer wealth to others, because that’s the net effect of this. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/422 "2021-07-30T16:23:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > While facing major labor shortqges, giving people more money to stay home than they would earn at work, and doing it with borrowed money, is crazy. Just before your Gish gallop continues, we had this conversation before, IIRC in a thread about universal income, even you came up saying before that it was awful that Republicans decided to cut taxes in amounts that nowadays are shown to be crazy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/423 "2021-07-30T16:34:59Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > This right here is why we need conservatives on the board. I strongly disagree with the assumptions and conclusions in this post. If not for the people writing it, there would be no one to discuss it with. It would be more helpful if they had better consistency in their arguments, many times the points come having less consistence than baby poop. They often run into contradictions and conspiracy theories **nowadays**. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/424 "2021-07-30T16:35:38Z")
Seems to me that this forum did not start out as a political board. Neither does it seem that most visitors find us because of political discussions. No, the people who come to the Straight Dope, both currently and historically, want to know why there is no blue food or if mosquitoes prefer certain blood types. In that context, the stated goal of fighting ignorance is good. Great. Wonderful, even. But add in political discussions and social commentary where one side–for clarity, that would be the US political right–is wholly resistant to facts, and fighting ignorance in that new context becomes an impossibility. You can have a forum where one side, over and over, cannot be persuaded by any amount of factual evidence. Or you can fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/425 "2021-07-30T16:36:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just before your Gish gallop continues, we had this conversation before, IIRC in a thread about universal income, even you came up saying before that it was awful that Republicans decided to cut taxes in amounts that nowadays are shown to be crazy. Not a Gish Gallop - mord like a position statement. And thank you for noticing that I opposed Trump’s tax cuts. I have been completely consistent about the need to tackle the debt, and not add to it. That’s true whether the problem is made worse by tax cuts or additional spending. It’s doubly true today when borrowing has to be accomplished by printing money. We all used to understand how bad it was to print money endlessly. That lesson apoarently has been lost. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/426 "2021-07-30T16:38:19Z")
Can I chime in that blueberries are blue ad my parents lied to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/427 "2021-07-30T16:40:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And thank you for noticing that I opposed Trump’s tax cuts. I have been completely consistent about the need to tackle the debt, and not add to it. Yes, but your point was that the Democratic Party was worse, when in reality the thing that they did here was to prevent an even worse economical disaster. The Republicans nowadays want to undermine the solutions to current problems. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/428 "2021-07-30T16:40:44Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I’ll admit that Biden came out of the box swinging, more than I expected. But he’s a “liberal,” whatever that means, not a “leftist.” Yeah, leftists really dislike him, on the whole–I see lots of memes from leftists criticizing him for not doing more to end border detentions, reform police, cancel student debt, prolong the eviction moratorium, reform or abolish federal prisons, etc. It’s an insane fantasy to pretend like he’s doing everything the left wants him to do. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/429 "2021-07-30T16:42:13Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Seems to me that this forum did not start out as a political board. Correct. We started out on AOL with just the Straight Dope columns and comments thereon. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/430 "2021-07-30T16:49:32Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I mean, if language just doesn’t work anymore, where do we go from there? Following up on this, I’m really tired of posters of the conservative, or even Trumpist, persuasion, insisting that they’re liberals, and when called on it, saying that they’re “classical liberals.” Let’s just stop turning actual words into meaningless noise. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/431 "2021-07-30T16:56:18Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Following up on this, I’m really tired of posters of the conservative, or even Trumpist, persuasion, insisting that they’re liberals, and when called on it, saying that they’re “classical liberals.” Next time, try demanding to see their [Prokofiev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Prokofiev) [collection.](https://www.politicalcompass.org/composers) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/432 "2021-07-30T17:06:19Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Following up on this, I’m really tired of posters of the conservative, or even Trumpist, persuasion, insisting that they’re liberals, and when called on it, saying that they’re “classical liberals.” I have never called myself a liberal. And just what do you think the term ‘classical liberal’ means, and how am I deviating from it? I believe strongly in individual rights. I am an absolutist on free speech. I am socially liberal and economically conservative. I believe people have right to live for their own goals so long as they don’t do so by taking away the right to same from others. I believe in a small government with a safety net large enough to maintain a civil society and ensure that true hardship can be met with compassion, but otherwise people should be free to succeed and fail on their merits. I believe institutions and norms matter for maintaining a high trust society, and a zone of privacy for all is also critical to maintaining it. I emphatically do not believe that the needs of a collective should outweigh the rights of individuals, including the right to property ownership. I believe that societies and economies are complex adaptive systems that work best when the people at the bottom are empowered to make their own choices. I believe central planning of such systems is doomed to failure or at least inefficiency. In foreign policy I believe “Walk softly and carry a big stick” is the right stance in general. In what way are those not the positions of a classical liberal? Are you sure you know what it means? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/433 "2021-07-30T17:09:46Z")
Who’da thunk that unemployment benefits in the middle of a fucking pandemic isn’t “a safety net large enough to maintain a civil society and ensure that true hardship can be met with compassion”? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/434 "2021-07-30T17:10:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I have never called myself a liberal. Did I say you did? No, right? > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Are you sure you know what it means? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/435 "2021-07-30T17:18:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I have never called myself a liberal. And just what do you think the term ‘classical liberal’ means, and how am I deviating from it? > > I believe strongly in individual rights. I am an absolutist on free speech. I am socially liberal and economically conservative. I believe people have right to live for their own goals so long as they don’t do so by taking away the right to same from others. > > I believe in a small government with a safety net large enough to maintain a civil society and ensure that true hardship can be met with compassion, but otherwise people should be free to succeed and fail on their merits. > > I believe institutions and norms matter for maintaining a high trust society, and a zone of privacy for all is also critical to maintaining it. > > I emphatically do not believe that the needs of a collective should outweigh the rights of individuals, including the right to property ownership. > > I believe that societies and economies are complex adaptive systems that work best when the people at the bottom are empowered to make their own choices. I believe central planning of such systems is doomed to failure or at least inefficiency. > > In foreign policy I believe “Walk softly and carry a big stick” is the right stance in general. > > In what way are those not the positions of a classical liberal? Are you sure you know what it means? You’ve shared your manifesto before. I realize you think it explains everything people ought to know about what you believe and that it answers all questions. In fact, it raises more questions than it answers. For example, what the fuck does this even mean in practical terms?: > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I believe in a small government with a safety net large enough to maintain a civil society and ensure that true hardship can be met with compassion, but otherwise people should be free to succeed and fail on their merits. Before you answer, don’t. This isn’t the place for it. Just realize that most people see it as nonsensical libertarian (for lack of better label) platitudes that in no way reflect real world order or solutions to real world problems. Fuck. I can’t even believe you think this is something meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/436 "2021-07-30T19:18:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well, that’s scary. Thank God for Joe Biden then. Either you have no idea what positions Biden puts forth, or you have no idea what positions the “left” supports. Whichever it is, it ought to call into question for yourself whether you’re actually equipped to have an opinion on any of it. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/437 "2021-07-30T19:39:38Z")
If there’s anyone on this board who believes in the virtues of a command economy, let’s get them in here and excoriate them. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/438 "2021-07-30T20:03:58Z")
It’s meaningful to me, because it’s so eerily reminiscent of my brother and SIL. They have very defined and ridiculously rigid ideologies. This allows them the really neat trick of reasoning backward _from_ those ideologies _to_ the right answer [wait for it] with virtually no thought required. I, OTOH, am laid low by the burden of having to consider things on their actual merits 😉 Which isn’t to say that I don’t have beliefs, principles, or my own version of a moral code. It is to say that I don’t simply and reflexively reason backward from them and try to fit Every Single Thing into that frame. Which isn’t to insult SS or single him out particularly. He’s posted some things that I found vexing, unimaginative, and reductive, but he’s also posted some stuff that I found thoughtful and intriguing. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/439 "2021-07-30T20:17:32Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Which isn’t to insult SS or single him out particularly. He’s posted some things that I found vexing, unimaginative, and reductive, but he’s also posted some stuff that I found thoughtful and intriguing. If I wasn’t in such a rush to hit “Reply”, I’d probably have included something similar about @Sam_Stone. Instead, what I posted was far more dismissive than I intended. I don’t consider him to be among those posters this board can do without. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/440 "2021-07-30T20:51:18Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > If there’s anyone on this board who believes in the virtues of a command economy, let’s get them in here and excoriate them. If you support 90% effective tax rates on the rich or wealth taxes, you are advocating for a command economy because Capitalism requires Capital. Lots of people here want the rich taxed that much. That would restrict ‘free enterprise’ to small businesses and turn everything else over to central planners in government. Silicon Valley was built by rich people. Venture capital built it, and with 90% tax rates there would be no venture capital. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=23)