# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/744 "2021-08-03T18:59:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > His point is, this is a reasonable statement: > > _If you say “that movie was so gay”, and a homosexual person overhears you, they would know that you are homophobic and could be insulted_ Absolutely, and a point I made myself, in some detail, above, even before my back-and-forth with Miller started. > [@Babale](#): > > This is not a reasonable statement: > > _If you say “that movie was so stupid”, and a person of low intelligence overhears you, they would know that you are dumbphobic and could be insulted_ Also true. But what Miller asked me about, and the question to which I responded, was calling a _person_ stupid. Different thing altogether. And after that there was a bit of retconning going on. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/745 "2021-08-03T19:01:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > “Stupid” was never used to describe an actual class of people. [“Dumb”, OTOH…](https://youtu.be/-J03yCE15rg?t=40) ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/746 "2021-08-03T19:18:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m making a distinction between using “stupid” as an insult, and using “retard” or “gay” as an insult. The distinction is that there is no social or political identity behind “stupid.” I absolutely understand that. Perhaps my ability to “read for context,” or “comprehension,” is limited. I am neither the smartest or the best-educated person in the room. But I understand that you’re making that distinction. What I’m saying is that there are people who identify as “stupid,” who think of themselves as “stupid” every day. Sure, you’re right to say that’s not a political identity, but it’s nonetheless real. And to call someone “stupid,” if that person who someone who considers himself stupid, is going to hit pretty hard. And some people (not you, of course) might perceive that about someone and then use the insult “stupid” to great effect. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/747 "2021-08-03T19:39:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m making a distinction between using “stupid” as an insult, and using “retard” or “gay” as an insult. The distinction is that there is no social or political identity behind “stupid.” > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > What I’m saying is that there are people who identify as “stupid,” who think of themselves as “stupid” every day. Sure, you’re right to say that’s not a political identity, but it’s nonetheless real. Compare the example I gave earlier, which is straight from the SDMB. Some people were insulting a guy by saying he was probably a virgin, lived in his mother’s basement, etc. And other people objected because it was offensive to virgins, and to people who were forced through circumstances to live with their parents. Those things aren’t social or political identities, and it wouldn’t even make sense to insult a movie in those terms, but they are still characteristics that apply to many people, who can therefore be vicariously insulted. I think ‘stupid’ falls into this category. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/748 "2021-08-03T19:47:34Z")
I think I’ve run my course in this thread. I’ll just leave it with this: Saying “we don’t need [people belonging to some disfavored group] around here” is something I’m not at all comfortable with. Even if that disfavored group includes some genuinely bad people. I think we need our conservatives. Even though they’re wrong almost all the time. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/749 "2021-08-03T20:29:33Z")
Wrong I don’t mind. The total disconnect from reality, the endless obvious lying, the stupid gotchas, the racism, the fake outrage at being called a racist; that gets on my nerves. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/750 "2021-08-03T20:31:43Z")
Don’t forget the projection. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/751 "2021-08-03T21:07:08Z")
Democrats are REALLY not saying anything about Cuomo. You are so right @Deeg, I owe you an apology. Biden’s silence on this issue is absolutely deafening. I am appalled by the Democrats’ behavior here. > **[Biden Calls On New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo To Resign](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-andrew-cuomo-resign_n_6109638ae4b0b94f607557a6)** > > The president's remarks came after an independent investigation found that Cuomo had sexually harassed multiple women. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/752 "2021-08-03T21:23:52Z")
When the accusations against Gaetz become public I expect a similar response from Republicans, assuming they are as easily verified. The public accusations against Cuomo weren’t enough, it took a five month investigation. And he is (currently) still trying to hold on, proving he is just as much of a scumbag as Gaetz. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/753 "2021-08-03T21:26:43Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > What I’m saying is that there are people who identify as “stupid,” who think of themselves as “stupid” every day. Sure, you’re right to say that’s not a political identity, but it’s nonetheless real. > > And to call someone “stupid,” if that person who someone who considers himself stupid, is going to hit pretty hard. I bet everyone agrees on that. Do you agree that saying, “That movie is stupid” is not offensive in the same way as saying, “That movie is retarded” is offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/754 "2021-08-03T21:28:31Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > When the accusations against Gaetz become public I expect a similar response from Republicans Like the similar response to the Roy Moore allegations? > [@Deeg](#): > > assuming they are as easily verified Ah, there’s the weasel words. What if it is hard to verify, should they just give up? > [@Deeg](#): > > And he is (currently) still trying to hold on, proving he is just as much of a scumbag as Gaetz. No argument on the scumbag part, but at least the women he sexually harassed were of legal age. That puts Gaetz in a whole other category. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/755 "2021-08-04T07:16:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > OK, I’m fine with that. That also means the concept of inoffensive would be that the word is inoffensive to _some_ . Are you fine with that? No in fact. Like I say, language is not always symmetrical and different things can be implied when you flip words around. The vast majority of words are inoffensive in _all_ contexts, and the remainder are inoffensive at least to some people some of the time. Thus the statement that a word is inoffensive would be taken to mean it’s _always_ inoffensive, otherwise why even bother saying anything? Whereas the opposite does _not_ imply always, as I’ve already explained. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I did, in your cites the definition of “ass” is incomplete (i.e. the obvious non-offensive version is not there) and the one for “crap” has other entries included that are not marked as offensive. Sure but the actual thing being disputed was whether words themselves are marked vulgar (or indeed, offensive) and they are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/756 "2021-08-04T07:22:07Z")
Can some mod direct the tedious semantic hijack to the tedious semantic hijack forum? ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/757 "2021-08-04T07:27:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Some slurs are allowed in the pit, but even here, they reflect badly on the person who uses them. It would be helpful to have this list somewhere. People being expected to know which insults are seen as reflecting well on the speaker and ones reflecting poorly on the speaker should be known. Perhaps you could put this list together, sort of like the bad words list that were forbidden before. My recollection of that list was that universal agreement on the specific words to put on that list did not exist, not by a long shot. > [@BigT](#): > > But I’d argue that’s because at least partly stupid is not a noun. A better example is moron(ic). Moron is a noun that applies to a single person, but, still, no one self-identifies as a moron. > > But, honestly, I’d argue that getting too wrapped up in trying to make rules out of what is acceptable language misses the point. Language is messy. The main thing is just listening to who the term has historically been used to disparage. Moron was the word that mentally retarded supplanted. It was describing the exact same group of people. > [@](#): > > Up until around the 1960s, the terms “moron”, “idiot”, “cretin” and “imbecile” were all genuine, non-offensive terms to refer to people with mental intellectual disabilities and low intelligence. [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retard_(pejorative)) Anyone using the words idiot, moron, cretin or imbecile are just using older words for the same group of people who were called mentally retarded, which was the neutral word that supplanted those words when they became derogatory. In 2010, Obama passed a Bill to take the term “mental retardation” out of laws and government documents and replaced them with “intellectual disability”. As Colibri points out here, because of the euphemism treadmill, that term will become a negative term as well. > [@Retard not Ok, but idiot,moron, and stupid are OK on the dope](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retard-not-ok-but-idiot-moron-and-stupid-are-ok-on-the-dope/932296/14): > > It’s called the [euphemism treadmill](https://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmill-replacing-r-word.html) and was coined by Stephen Pinker. The article gives good description of how retarded replaced moron, idiot, and imbecile and now is being replaced by developmentally disabled etc. As long as people consider others with less intelligence to be inferior, the words will continue to cycle and change, but the meaning will be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/758 "2021-08-04T07:56:20Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The vast majority of words are inoffensive in _all_ contexts I disagree. Words themselves are rarely either offensive or inoffensive in and of themselves and completely dependent on usage and context. There is no such thing as a context-free word. I could write an offensive statement right here, directed at you, that would be composed entirely of words that are marked neither “vulgar” nor “offensive”. > [@Mijin](#): > > Sure but the actual thing being disputed was whether words themselves are marked vulgar (or indeed, offensive) and they are. They have vulgar or offensive attached to the definitions of their usage which are neither complete nor exhaustive. That is what your own dictionary cite shows. But again, I’m not the one appealing to dictionaries to define what is offensive usage or not. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/759 "2021-08-04T07:59:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Like the similar response to the Roy Moore allegations? And the Kavanaugh allegations. And the Trump allegations. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/760 "2021-08-04T08:08:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I disagree. Words themselves are rarely either offensive or inoffensive in and of themselves and completely dependent on usage and context. There is no such thing as a context-free word. Context and usage matters, but yes words are also considered vulgar or offensive in general. Find any dictionary that doesn’t mark words with such categorizations. The OED and others did not even include words like “fuck” until relatively recently, despite them being common in the language because they were just considered intrisically offensive. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But again, I’m not the one appealing to dictionaries to define what is offensive usage or not. That’s right, you’re the one appealing to _absolutely fuck all_ to support your position. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/761 "2021-08-04T08:16:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Context and usage matters, but yes words are also considered vulgar or offensive in general. That’s not what you said. You said the vast majority of words are inoffensive in _all contexts_. > [@Mijin](#): > > Find any dictionary that doesn’t mark words with such categorizations Every dictionary marks certain _usages_ of certain words with such labels. That is a straightforward proof that the same word that is offensive or vulgar in one context and usage, in not in another. I gleefully point you in the direction of cock, tits, pussy, fag, gay etc. etc. etc. > [@Mijin](#): > > The OED and others did not even include words like “fuck” until relatively recently, despite them being common in the language because they were just considered intrisically offensive. And now they are included (thus proving the incompleteness and uselessness of dictionaries for this discussion) and you just used the word in a completely inoffensive way. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/762 "2021-08-04T08:20:45Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Can some mod direct the tedious semantic hijack to the tedious semantic hijack forum? Great Debates? 🤓 ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/763 "2021-08-04T08:51:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > OK, I’m fine with that. That also means the concept of inoffensive would be that the word is inoffensive to _some_ . Are you fine with that? > > No in fact. > Like I say, language is not always symmetrical and different things can be implied when you flip words around. So your argument is that if a word is considered offensive in eg Australia, but not the US, then that word is offensive full stop and should be avoided by everyone? Or is it something different? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=39)